D&D 5E I just don't see why they even bothered with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide.

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Assume the budget is comparable to what they currently have to work with, since that's what the upper management at WotC I content to give them? I.e. a half-dozen staff, little real marketing. And very, very likely heavy managerial involvement.

Probably the most important thing is to get at least some kind of License out there for 3rd parties to use (rather then the current OGL work around).

Secondly we need a 5e version of DDI and or electronic versions of the core rule books.

Thirdly we need a 5e version of Dragon/Dungeon. I would probably be in talks with people that know how to do it so that it would not be taking up too much time with the small group of staff left.

Now that is three extra things feeding back into our revenue stream and driving the brand forward.
 

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Hussar

Legend
Probably the most important thing is to get at least some kind of License out there for 3rd parties to use (rather then the current OGL work around).

You're presuming the OGL results in sales for WOTC. An arguable point, and certainly not one that has ever been definitively proven (or disproven). It's entirely possible that the OGL did not have an appreciable effect on 3e sales for WOTC.

Secondly we need a 5e version of DDI and or electronic versions of the core rule books.

This is entirely incompatable with your first point. If you have a DDI, then the OGL producers are left out in the cold.

Thirdly we need a 5e version of Dragon/Dungeon. I would probably be in talks with people that know how to do it so that it would not be taking up too much time with the small group of staff left.

Now that is three extra things feeding back into our revenue stream and driving the brand forward.

Print or online? And, either way, how do you know that Dungeon/Dragon are profitable?

And, I'd point something out here. There are well over 100 3rd party adventures for 5e on sale right now. There's more material available for 5e than you could possibly play in a year. So, how would an OGL make the slightest difference? How would a Dungeon magazine compete with the massive number of adventures that are available right now?
 

garnuk

First Post
My friend picked this book up. I've read through it more thoroughly. I can't find much in it I would use.

Fluff: Better fluff in all the previous books. There's no new fluff that is very interesting. I couldn't and wouldn't keep track of all the fluff changes if I wanted to and I don't. I use the Realms to tell stories about the characters my players are playing and I don't care what other characters are doing.

Deities: Same old deities. Fewer domains which makes them seem more alike. If they wanted to make the Realms deities more interesting, they would have come up with more domains. They add the Arcana domain, then divide the small number of domains among the 40 or so gods. Makes for very boring deities. No specialty priests. Very little flavor or thought put into the religions of the Forgotten Realms.

Races: The half-elf extra options were nothing that couldn't have been thought up by a DM and player in a few minutes. They added the Duergar. They talk about them walking about invisible all the time, yet it only lasts an hour. That is hardly all the time. The Duergar could have been released in the Monster Manual.

Archetypes:

Barbarian: Battlerager is a weak archetype. Battlerager armor is supposed to be plate armor from the books. Instead the spiked armor is some weak AC 14 armor. Bad conceptual and implemented design. Extra totems might see some use, but probably not.

Bard: Lots of fluff talk about colleges. Some different instruments. Mostly useless.

Cleric: One new domain with forty plus deities. Start writing domains and show some creativity. This game could use 5 or 10 more domains easily.

Druid: More fluffy fluff.

Fighter: Purple Dragon Knight will likely never see any use in my campaigns.

Monk: A couple of decent archetypes that might see use. I guess I'll see in time. Sun Monk is better than the elemental monk.

Paladin: I haven't see anyone play much besides vengeance. Oath of the Crown likely won't change that.

Ranger: Not much going on with the ranger. Wish they would do something to get the beastmaster class right.

Rogue: A couple of ok archetypes that might see some use, not by me, but maybe by someone. Swashbuckler too melee oriented with the limitations on rogue AC and hit points. Mastermind could be interesting in certain types of campaigns.

Sorcerous Origin: Storm sorcerer might see some use. Removal of bonus spells huge minus. Shadow sorcerer was much cooler than this storm sorcerer. High level flight is pretty good though.

Warlock: Undying doesn't look particularly appealing.

Wizard: Bladesinger archetype looks like a good way to waste your time. I much prefer Pathfinder's Magus class which better models a bladesinger. Bladesinger and similar classes should be a five level wizard/fighter hybrid like paladins or rangers with bladesinger as an archetype. I believe making the Bladesinger an archetype of the wizard to be a poor design choice that will make it unattractive in the long run.

Overall, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide was a poorly done book that shows a real lack of creativity whether you are looking at mechanics or lore. I'm very disappointed. Last time I was purchasing WotC products was during the 3E era. From the time FR became WotC's default world, the FR books were some of their highest quality books in 2E and 3E. It's very disappointing to see such a drop in quality in all areas from those eras. I look at the FR boxed and guides from 2E as well as the region books and campaign setting from 3E, I wonder where the creativity and pride are at WotC. When I purchased the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in the 3E era, that book made me feel like WotC was giving me a bargain. It was a big, beautifully made book with a large pullout well detailed map. I had regional feats, traits, prestige classes, spells, god information, magic items, feats, and each region had a section. It was a beautiful book that made you feel like WotC was really putting effort and money into producing an amazing book. This Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide really makes me wonder, "What happened to WotC?"

I know other people have to remember the 3E FR books. I don't mean some of the insanely overpowered options like the first release of the archmage and hierophant I mean the quality of the books themselves. I felt like those books were on par with Pathfinder, heck, they were better than Pathfinder regional books. This Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is not at all on par. I get nearly as much information in a couple of issues of a Pathfinder adventure path as I received in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. What happened to the creative minds that used to put out those great books during 2E and 3E? Are they all gone?

Unsurprisingly, some of the things you think were terrible, I thought were great, and some of the things you think weren't that bad, I thought were terrible.

To each their own.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Unsurprisingly, some of the things you think were terrible, I thought were great, and some of the things you think weren't that bad, I thought were terrible.

To each their own.

So you didn't really read what I wrote since I thought nothing was great and didn't describe anything as terrible. I look at the design. Terrible and great don't really take into account mechanics. This would have been a lot longer had I taken the time to explain why the mechanics are poor, but those topics are being discussed elsewhere. If we were going deep into the mechanics, the viability of the new material could be objectively shown to be poor. That's way too long a discussion.
 

garnuk

First Post
I read what you wrote. I just don't value the same things you value. I've never had anyone play a Vengence Paladin at our table for instance. And we are having tons of fun with the Bladesinger.

You dismissed the lore as "fluffity fluff" and then said the lore lacked creativity. You clearly weren't just talking about mechanics, and were passing value judgements on all of it.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
What happened to the creative minds that used to put out those great books during 2E and 3E? Are they all gone?

Nope... they just still own those 2E and 3E books and thus don't need to have virtual reprints of them for a 100+ year timeline jump. They use what they already have and make up the rest.

I suspect Mike & Co. finally just came to the realization "You know... maybe we don't need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars paying writers, artists, cartographers, editors and the like to produce another 2 dozen sourcebooks of a land we've already done that once for... just because some Dungeon Masters are hung up on not wanting to 'go against canon' and thus need every single little bit of canon spelled out for them. Maybe we can just tell them 'Hey guys... if you want more Realms canon... then use your campaign to generate it.' Yeah, that'll piss off a couple people who'd get all squiggly over that idea... but it'll save a crapload of our budget PLUS put the power back in the Dungeon Master's hands where it belongs. Hell... it also saves us from having to continually put out fires from the non-compulsive amongst them who spent decades complaining they felt like they had to buy every single FR book we produced because they felt like they had to "keep up" with the story. Now they can make the story their own... which, after all, is what their campaign does ANYWAY."
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
If I spent $100 on a Kickstarter, that's a $100 of disposable money not going to a game store.

By that logic, all "disposable" money is going somewhere other than a game store, which means that they're in competition with absolutely everything. I suppose that's true, but in that regard Kickstarter is no different than anything else, and that makes the issue so broad as to be largely meaningless when talking about why FLGS's don't like Kickstarter specifically.

Hence why I mentioned before that the issue was more germane if you looked at it in terms of different venues for the same products, which is what you pivoted to after that.

Not just RPGs. I'm expecting the Ghostbusters board game any week now, which will be in stores but I backed on Kickstarter, getting a lot of exclusive perks and add-ons in the process. That's business the store is losing:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cze/ghostbusters-the-board-game/description
The lowest tier is the game. Because that's what you're getting. That's 8000 copies of the game not being sold in stores, for cheaper than you could get in stores, and with exclusive options.

This is NOT business that the store is losing, because if this Kickstarter didn't succeed then the game wouldn't be sold in stores anyway, meaning that they'd never have gotten that business for this particular product to begin with. If the alternative to a Kickstarter is that the book, game, etc. is never produced, then that means that brick-and-mortar retailers by definition cannot be losing out, because that product wouldn't be available to be sold by them to begin with.

That's leaving aside the self-evident issue of how, once the Kickstarter closes, you can't order the book via that particular venue anyway. Not to mention that your assertion that "that's 8,000 copies of the game not being sold in stores" is flat-out wrong: the Kickstarter has an option for retailers specifically, meaning that it's going out of its way to include them - so much for the "competition" argument.

And how many gamers now have Reaper's Bones minis completely bypassing gaming stores in the process?

See above. If those dice wouldn't be made otherwise, then they're not taking business away from stores. You can't compete for a product that wouldn't exist otherwise.

I don't think Kickstarter is doing much to stores, but it's not helping. Like online stores, Print on Demand, or publisher stores it's one more way of getting products into the hands of gamers unrelated to brick and mortar stores.

Except we know that this is flat-out not the case. Kickstarter is nothing like online stores, print-on-demand, or publisher stores. If anything, it's helping brick-and-mortar stores by making sure that the products they sell can continue to be produced with regularity, and that's leaving aside instances of when Kickstarter projects go out of their way to include FLGS's in their project, like the Ghostbusters board game you linked to above.

Well, if you're just making up fictional scenarios in which you assign your own fictional goals and fictional budgets, then sure. If the goal is to buy a puppy and they don't budget enough to buy a puppy, then sure, that's a failure. It's not particularly relevant to the conversation, though.

Neither was your distinction that books that were never intended to go into brick-and-mortar stores and so didn't have a distributor-level print budget weren't a "failure" per se, since that had nothing to do with the topic of whether or not Kickstarter projects compete with FLGS's. One meaningless tangent deserves another.
 
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Hussar

Legend
[MENTION=8461]Alzrius[/MENTION] - I think you're missing what's being said. If a Kickstarter product is not being distributed to retailers, then it is no different, really, than something like Drive-Thru RPG. It's a competing channel for RPG dollars. It's a zero sum game. If someone is buying their material through kick-starters, then they have that much less money to buy a product at a retailer. Kickstarter isn't particularly retailer friendly since many kickstarters are not meant for retail sales. The kickstarter projects sell direct to the customer, quite often, and completely bypass retailers.

That's not particularly retailer friendly. Which is the point that's being made here. It's a competing channel.
 

Here is my option and I can guarantee you that it will work. Now before we begin, let me remind you that as long as I am making enough money to pay all the bills and everyone gets paid well then all is good. I do not jog on the profit treadmill nor do I expect unrealistic goals.

I would basically take Paizo's strategy with a few differences here and there because it works.
That works for Paizo because they have different profit & sales expectations, and have their subscription model that gives them increased profits from each sale (by acting as a store) while also guaranteed sales.
And if its sustainable long term remains to be seen.

Probably the most important thing is to get at least some kind of License out there for 3rd parties to use (rather then the current OGL work around).
That could help. Not sure it would. People seem to be doing just fine with the old OGL.

Secondly we need a 5e version of DDI and or electronic versions of the core rule books.
Do we?
5e characters are not so complicated that such a thing seems necessary. Levelling takes seconds. DM tools might be nice though.
If the tools helped 4e or not is also uncertain. They were handy. But also made buying the books optional.

(Electronic versions of the book I heartily agree with.)

Thirdly we need a 5e version of Dragon/Dungeon. I would probably be in talks with people that know how to do it so that it would not be taking up too much time with the small group of staff left.
First, I find it interesting that your three ideas for increasing profits were all done during 4e and didn't save that edition.
Second, I imagine if anyone was willing to licence Dragon and Dungeon out again they would have. The absence of the magazines is likely due to no company wanting to get into that business. It's basically releasing aa couple 50-100 page PDF ever month. Even prolific Pathfinder 3rd Party Publishers would have trouble with that rate of release.

The magazines fill an interesting niche. If there are mechanical articles they're basically splatbook. If they're advice articles or musings on the game, well those are basically blogs, and I can find dozens of those online for free. So much of what they do has been usurped by small PDFs and aforementioned blogs. The format doesn't seem relevant.
 

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