Perception should be an intelligence proficiency

iserith · Mar 17, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Monster knowledge both mechanical and tactical helps.

That alone should put make that as strong as Perception in my view. Surprise sucks, of course, but it's just as much a surprise, for example, to hit a creature and find out it's immune to the spell you just hit it with. Trying to recall lore before doing anything else is usually a no-cost or low-cost option that can make a really big difference.

Sword of Spirit · Mar 17, 2019

Giltonio_Santos said:
If you're giving that kind of knowledge for free

My suspicion is that is likely the case in a good portion of the groups that find Intelligence to be underwhelming. Since using "lore checks" to determine what your characters know (other than what they've learned during play) isn't something that some groups enjoy doing, I think that's just going to be a consequence: Intelligence then won't matter as much.

In my group we do use Intelligence for determining what the PCs know regularly, so it doesn't feel weak. Probably still the objectively weak"est" of the six stats, but one of them has to be if you are ranking them.

Seramus · Mar 17, 2019

Do Both.

Using your extensive knowledge to notice details others didn't realize were important? Intelligence + Perception. You have to know something is important before that detail stands out in your mind. Like the Sixth Sense and the color red. Using longtime experience and instincts to notice familiar details? Wisdom + Perception.

This also means that intelligent people who are otherwise good at noticing details important to them can fail to notice more mundane things. Which is pretty much every moment of my life.

5ekyu · Mar 17, 2019

CubicsRube said:
I've been thinking lately about the much bemoaned obsolence of INT as a useful stat for most classes this edition and I feel like there is one simple thing tjat would go a long way to having people seriously consider not dumping it: make perception an intelligence proficiency.

What this means:
Druids, monks, rangers, and cleric are no longer the typically "perceptive" classes.
Wizards, eldritch knights, arcane tricksters are.

For some of you, that may grate, others perhaps it may not.

It has some support. INT saves are often used to resist illusions.

That's my thought on balancing wisdom and intelligence somewhat, and how i would likely do it if i were running standard 5e.

Hiw would you all add value to INT?

Uhh.. no.

Would not go there. I think it steps further into blurring Int and Wis,

Looking across the 10 pcs in the two games I am involved in, I see one character with an Intelligence penalty stat (goliath barbarian), two with Charisma penalty stat and about four with a strength penalty stat (halfling, two elves and a tiefling iirc)

So, if I saw any ability scores as having a problem being seen by players as worth having, Int would be like third on that list. Like most stats, it has benefit to some, not to others and its gonna boil down to the challenges presented to provide any sort of "value" beyond "what is my concept?"

My first question for a GM who had problems with the value of Int in their game would be "What can you tell me about how much investigate plays the roll vs perception/insight and how much knowledge matters to your outcomes in play?"

For example, do you have combats where an Int (Investigation) check - possibly passive - reveals a pattern or clue that is useful during the scene or are they absent almost totally and handed off to perception/insight or even worse- left to the players and not character-based at all?

Int (inv) is the aptitude level of putting together the clues and I very rarely have players anxious to sacrifice that in my games.

sim-h · Mar 17, 2019

I strongly disagree Perception should be based on Intelligence not Wisdom.

But I agree Intelligence is a weak stat. I think the DM can do a lot about this at 'session zero', warning players that dumping INT will have consequences (you can't read, wouldn't possibly know that fact so can't roll, wouldn't have the wits to make that clever response so have to pass on it, etc.)

Alternatively and more radically, have INT modifier applied to XP gains

+1=5% up to +5=25% Would this mean the entire party became wizards? Probably.

Inchoroi · Mar 17, 2019

LordEntrails said:
Run Perception and Investigation the way I do, which is the way I think they are intended to be used.

Perception tells you something is wrong. It tells you their is a draft, or scuff marks, or that something is off. It never tells you what or how. Sure, perception tells you the wall has a draft that might be a secret door, but without investigation you will never find where the door is or how to open it.

Sure, perception tells you their is a trip wire across the hallway or a switch/trigger on the door hinge. But you will never figure out how to bypass or disarm it unless you use investigation.

Perception tells you the gate guard as a tattoo half hidden on his forearm, but only intelligence is going to tell you anything about it.

Low Int is fine in my games, but don't expect to know why. Go ahead and be a bull in a china shop, but their will be no finesse or innuendo etc.

This is how I do it!

My player's rogue has both Investigation and Perception as expertise to be the "dungeon guy;" first time I've ever seen anyone take Dungeon Delver, too, since the game came out.

TaranTheWanderer · Mar 17, 2019

why did it double post? See my post below

TaranTheWanderer · Mar 17, 2019

Use Investigation and Perception properly. (Ie: not how it's described in the book)

Noticing fine details is Investigation: searching for traps, looking for clues, finding secret doors, figuring out where to find hidden switches.

Noticing 'something off' like a bush shaking weirdly when there's no wind (ambush?), a strange smell, a draft in a a bizarre place is Perception(WIS).

People use Perception for everything. Don't do that. It makes the skill way too powerful.

Do you ever try to sneak up on a deer in the woods? They notice things even though they haven't pinpointed the source. That's perception(wis). Searching the bushes for the source of the noise is Investigation(INT). That wasn't a rabbit, it was a bugbear!

Use passive knowledge skills for knowing basic information about your campaign. "Hey DM, this King's tomb we're in, what do I know about him?" Their passive History skill will tell them all the basic info they know. Let them roll and anything higher than their passive will net them more an extra tidbit of info.

Worried that the PC with 20 INT and expertise in History will know everything? Don't be Mad, be Glad! It's great! Info dump all the cool details of your campaign that every other group missed. You can finally run that adventure about the legend of the hero who threw himself off a cliff and have the players find where you stashed some cool loot and monsters.

Reward INT and people will use it more.

robus · Mar 17, 2019

guachi said:
If Perception were an Intelligence skill animals would be awful at it. Therefore, it should stay a Wisdom skill.

If it's the kind of thing an animal could detect, it's a Perception skill check.

If it's the kind of thing a human would be better at detecting/deducing it's an Investigation check.

This was very insightful when I first read it (one of your earlier posts perhaps?) and is a great way to understand perception: sensing things that are out of the ordinary, vibrations, smells, noises, drafts etc, or things you’re on particular look out for, like prey for hunting animals.

ThePlanarDM · Mar 17, 2019

I have found that when I DM I ask for a lot of investigation checks, but when I watch others GM, the players and GM will often ask for perception checks during similar circumstances. My sense is that perception is being used as a catch-all for interacting with the world around you, when really, this should be split fairly equally into investigation and perception.