D&D 5E State of the mystic

Tony Vargas said:

So only Tier 2, then?

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Yes, which still put it below casters like clerics and druids. But that was the best that psionics had to offer in 3.X so I would say that it did a better job then of power parity.

Tony Vargas said:

While I in no way begrudge folks who want them their psionic classes, for me it always seemed the problem with psionics - and the reason game designers kept resorting to novel mechanics for it - is that it's not really that different, in fluff, from magic. A lot of what people who believed in magic would have called magic, is what we'd today call a 'psychic power' (or a temporal lobe seizure, as the case may be). If anything, some you might be wishing for psionics for something that feels /more/ like real/traditional magic than D&D fireball & lightning SFX. The difference is context, "psionics" was coined for science fiction, it brought psychic powers/magic into the realm of the science-sounding 'electronics' or 'cryonics' or 'bionics' or psychotronics (brace yourself & google it) or whateveronics that were buzzing mid-century, the way "dot-com" did at the turn of the millennium.

For that matter, arguably, Sorcerers & Warlocks are mainly differentiated from Wizards by the mechanics, because the fluff distinctions among them aren't as robust as they might be. (Though, I suppose history really says the opposite: the Sorcerer was introduced as a vehicle for spontaneous casting, and the Warlock for at-will casting. The fluff was just making excuses. ::shrug:

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Regardless of its terminological origins, psionics basically has entered general parlance for a type or flavor of "magic" within both science-fantasy - because the moment you introduce psionics into a world, it essentially becomes fantasy (hello, Star Wars) - and more traditional fantasy as well. However, psionics are generally not depicted as "spells," but as a subtle and mystical art.

Yaarel said:

The only time psionics has ever been balanced is because it used normal mechanics. The powers were transparent with the spells that other classes used. The 3e Psion of the Expanded Psionic Handbook used a spell point system. The 4e Psion used the same at-will, per-encounter, and per-day powers that other classes used.

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Dreamscarred Press did an incredible job of adapting and EXPANDING 3.5 psionics for Pathfinder. You could even run a full party with nothing but their psionic classes, including a Vitalist as a healer.

I liked the 3.5e and 5e Psionic systems, but I also like skill-based psionics such as the 3.X Psychic Handbook (Green Ronin), Blue Rose (also Green Ronin), or the sci-fi OSR game Stars Without Number (Sine Nomine).

I also liked Starfinder's Mystic class, which basically rolled the Psion, Cleric, Shaman, and Druid all into one Wisdom-wielding mystical class of telepathy, enlightenment, and insight.

Aldarc said:

Dreamscarred Press did an incredible job of adapting and EXPANDING 3.5 psionics for Pathfinder. You could even run a full party with nothing but their psionic classes, including a Vitalist as a healer.

I liked the 3.5e and 5e Psionic systems, but I also like skill-based psionics such as the 3.X Psychic Handbook (Green Ronin), Blue Rose (also Green Ronin), or the sci-fi OSR game Stars Without Number (Sine Nomine).

I also liked Starfinder's Mystic class, which basically rolled the Psion, Cleric, Shaman, and Druid all into one Wisdom-wielding mystical class of telepathy, enlightenment, and insight.

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Yeah, Dreamscarred Press transmits well the beauty and the enthusiasm of the 3e psionic fans. It builds from the Expanded Psionic Handbook. This 3e psion is my favorite version of psionics in the D&D tradition.

To translate the 3e Psion into 5e, a psionic archetype for the 5e Wizard works well. (Heh, and of course, it wont have a literal spellbook.) Either, the Psion Wizard wont need a spellbook, because it selects known spells by an alternative mechanic, or it relies on a more cerebral flavor of spellbook, such as photographic memory (eidetic). One of my favorite spells that invented for ‘spell research’ in 1e/2e, I called Phantasmal Spellbook. It was essentially an illusion of a spellbook that was only in the mind the Wizard (magic-user). It could potentially be dispelled, but it was highly portable, immune to theft, and so on. I kept the original spellbook at home, while adventuring with the Phantasmal Spellbook, and updated the original on my return. That campaign was alot of fun. Anyway, depending on taste, Phantasmal Spellbook might be reasonably mindful flavor for a psionic Wizard. That said, I would prefer if the psionic Wizard rewarded a selection of spells that were thematically related to each other. Such as pick two themes, and benefit significantly, when choosing other spells relating to either theme. Because the 5e Wizard is now a spontaneous caster, I am comfortable using the Wizard spell mechanics for a Psion.

Translating the skill-based psionics into 5e, I can see a psionic archetype for the Rogue doing this well.

For shaman flavor, I see Charisma is the most salient flavor, because of the role of community leader, tricksterism, socially interacting with nature beings, and so on. So, for 5e, the Bard class makes the best ‘psionic animist’ Shaman.

To translate 1e psionic flavor, psionic feats that anyone can take work well. Maybe even ‘telekinesis’ as a skill that a background can offer, along with ‘prescience’ as an other skill, and ‘telepathy’ as an other skill. These are probably the big three themes for modern psionics.



The challenge of using a core class for a psionic archetype is the class has to do well to accommodate both the psionic mechanics and the psionic flavor. When I think of the Warlock, I notice how well the ‘Hexblade’ has been able to transform the class chassis, even to the point of eliminating the name ‘warlock’. But even tho I am fond of the mechanics, the Warlock class has so much flavor baggage that I dont want the kind of psionics that I like to go near it. So it is tricky, mechanics and flavor have to work well.

For me, the whole point of psionics is the person oneself is the source of the magic, achieved by means of ones own mind. This is the original 1e core concept, and it is important to me. Heh, so, I personally stay clear away from Cthulu squick, New Age crystals, ghosts, and astral slime. It is the mind that matters.

The psion probably has more in common with a 5E sorcerer than a 5E wizard. No spellbook. Smaller range of powers known. The main overlap between the psion and wizard has been Intelligence. That said, I know that the psion is most commonly attached to Intelligence as its primary attribute, but I know a number of psionic fans who would wish that the psion was appropriately attached to Wisdom for a change.

Aldarc said:

The psion probably has more in common with a 5E sorcerer than a 5E wizard. No spellbook. Smaller range of powers known. The main overlap between the psion and wizard has been Intelligence. That said, I know that the psion is most commonly attached to Intelligence as its primary attribute, but I know a number of psionic fans who would wish that the psion was appropriately attached to Wisdom for a change.

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I dont disagree. But I just cant get into the 5e Sorcerer.

In the 3e, the Sorcerer was early on the only option for nonvancian casting. Even then, at high tiers, the sorcerer was significantly underpowered compared to the Wizard, the red-headed step child playing second fiddle, while the 3e designers were intentionally punishing players who disliked vancian casting.

Anyway, now that the 5e Wizard is itself a spontaneous caster, I love the 5e Wizard. In contrast the 5e Sorcerer is kinda pointless. And the Sorcerer point system feels too klugy and clumsy. Also, in my circles the word ‘sorcerer’ has a specific anthropological meaning (summoning spirits/demons to attack someone), so the name itself turns me off for psionic flavor.

Psionics has to be mindful and mechanically clean and elegant.

For me, Charisma − to influence other minds and the world around one − is by far the most important Psionic stat.

Yaarel said:

I dont disagree. But I just cant get into the 5e Sorcerer.

In the 3e, the Sorcerer was early on the only option for nonvancian casting. Even then, at high tiers, the sorcerer was significantly underpowered compared to the Wizard, the red-headed step child playing second fiddle, while the 3e designers were intentionally punishing players who disliked vancian casting.

Anyway, now that the 5e Wizard is itself a spontaneous caster, I love the 5e Wizard. In contrast the 5e Sorcerer is kinda pointless. And the Sorcerer point system feels too klugy and clumsy. Also, in my circles the word ‘sorcerer’ has a specific anthropological meaning (summoning spirits/demons to attack someone), so the name itself turns me off for psionic flavor.

Psionics has to be mindful and mechanically clean and elegant.

For me, Charisma − to influence other minds and the world around one − is by far the most important Psionic stat.

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So you want to make the psion a wizard subclass despite more appropriate classes existing because you love the 5e wizard so much? I can't find much sympathy with that position.

Aldarc said:

So you want to make the psion a wizard subclass despite more appropriate classes existing because you love the 5e wizard so much? I can't find much sympathy with that position.

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Heh.

I care about flavor, and I care about official support flavor. It matters to me.

The 5e Wizard is a spontaneous caster like the 3e Psion is. While I agree Intelligence is probably the least important mental stat for Psionics, the fact is, the 3e Psion is an Intelligence mage. The flavor of the Wizard is neutral. It has a great spell selection to pick useful spells with appropriate flavor. It is a good chassis. The 5e Wizard mechanics are elegant and appropriate for the 3e Psion. The flavor is accommodating too. The Wizard is an ideal candidate.

Also, the 5e Bard is a spontaneous full caster, a great candidate for the 3e Psion. It has the Charisma that I love. Already has most of the spells with the flavor I am looking for for a Telepath and Psychometabolic,

Regarding the 5e Sorcerer, I dislike its mechanics, I dislike its name. Also, its spell list would need an overhaul. The Sorcerer seems a less favorable candidate for the kind of 3e Psion that I like.

Yaarel said:

Anyway, now that the 5e Wizard is itself a spontaneous caster, I love the 5e Wizard. In contrast the 5e Sorcerer is kinda pointless.

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Flavor wise perhaps.

Power wise the ability to twin and quicken spells mean a brutal power upgrade. As you leave the low levels you never run out of sorcery points.

The Sorcerer is like bringing two wizards, albeit two destruction-only Wizards.

The Sorcerer's problem is that once you've played the Red Dragon Fire archetype, the class is pretty much done. It could have been so much more.

But pointless? Not for a power gamers it's not.

Telekinesis is a theme that I love. It almost doesnt exist in Norse animistic psionics, but Telekinesis is central to modern psionics.

Unfortunately, D&D has never done Telekinesis well. The designers are kinda afraid of it, so they always overnerf it to the point of unappealing − absurdly high level, and ridiculously overregulated.

When I think of Telekinesis, I am thinking Luke Skywalker, X-Men Phoenix, also the movie Chronicle.

But when the designers are thinking Telekinesis, they are thinking Mage Hand and Telekinesis Push. (Heh, Yuck.)



The kind of Telekinesis I want to see in D&D is something that starts off as low-weight always on Telekinetic ability. Like Mage Hand but more fluid, so that it could lift a globule of water into the air, and shape it according the minds desire. This is something that a ‘spectral hand’ cannot accomplish. The 10 lb weight is pretty generous, and useful, for a low level an always on ability. Then while leveling, the higher slots allow for greater and greater mass to float and shape at will.

Even better than focusing on the math of ‘weight’ and trying to guess how much a random object weighs, the mechanics would be friendlier if instead focusing on size.

So at level 1, the Telekinete would float, shape, and manipulate any Tiny quantity or object. At the next tier, Level 5, any Small amount. At Level 9, Medium. Level 13 Large, Level 17 Huge. At Epic Gargantuan.

Unattended objects get no save. But creatures do. Perhaps a Charisma save (evil grin) to push back against the Telekinete.

CapnZapp said:

Flavor wise perhaps.

Power wise the ability to twin and quicken spells mean a brutal power upgrade. As you leave the low levels you never run out of sorcery points.

The Sorcerer is like bringing two wizards, albeit two destruction-only Wizards.

The Sorcerer's problem is that once you've played the Red Dragon Fire archetype, the class is pretty much done. It could have been so much more.

But pointless? Not for a power gamers it's not.

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Yeah exactly. The Sorcerer fire and elemental themes − while they have their trope as a Psionic possibility − they remain peripheral to the flavor of psionics.

Telekinesis is an invisible mental ‘force’.

Actually, when I doublechecked the Sorcerer spell list it wasnt too obsessed about elementalism, because at the time the designers had removed many of the elemental spells for the Elemental Evil book, which Xanathars Guide has now inherited. The Sorcerer might work as a Pyrokineticist/Pyromancer or other kind of Elementalist, but this isnt the kind of Psion that I seek.

That is part of what I meant about the Sorcerer spell list lacking. It lacks many spells that a 3e Psion needs.

I am not a fan of the mystic.

I worked on a psionics system for 5E for a bit. My core ideas:

1.) Don't use the spell mechanism.
2.) Use all 6 ability scores in the class by having 12 different disciplines, 2 for each attribute.
3.) Have most of the abilities be 'at will' - with the ability aimed at being stronger than a cantrip, but weaker than a spell that an equivalent caster could cast.
4.) Although most powers are unlimited 'at will' abilities, there are some powers that are usable once per SR or once per LR. These have the kick of a spell, but I was trying to make the mechanics feel distinct from spells by giving them potentially higher benefits, but additional costs (evocative of the nosebleeds telekinetics get in movies, struggling to hold powers against enemy resistance, etc...)
5.) The Psion class had five builds: Psychic warrior (Jedi), the Mystic (Psionics as part of the natural order - you're part of the psionic force - you evoke broader psionics, but have less control of them), the Master (Psionics as something you control - you control the psionic force more closely, but have less breadth in what you can do), the Devoted Arcane (Sorcerer King) or Sorcerous Devotee (similar to the Devoted Arcane, but with the magic part more thematically tied to a sorcerer than a wizard).
6.) You'd gain minor, major or total access to a discipline based upon class level and build. Each discipline had a power list and you'd get to select a number of powers based upon build and class level as well. Having major access to a power meant you could do more with it than if you had minor access. Each power also had a focus option, to which the Master had easier access, but the other builds less access, which allowed you to exert tighter control over powers.
7.) Psionics are distinct from magic, so detect/dispel magic does not work on it, but I added spells that interact with psionics.

While I liked how it was shaping up, I've been too busy (and became preoccupied with other pursuits, such as Gloomhaven, moving, etc..) to remotely finish it. Certain of the 12 disciplines were very hard to shape in this structure as well. I liked that it did not feel like a wizard or sorcerer. I liked that it was incredibly varied. I liked how it worked with multiclassing for any class. I liked how it fit into a Dark Sun setting I would run. I liked how the mechanics of creatures like mind flayers could be revised to work under the psionic system and it felt right.

However, it worked best with my epic level rules in play which allowed building a PC up to 30th level rather than just 20th. A 30th level Devoted Arcane was a Sorcerer King and felt complete. A 20th level Devoted Arcane could do powerful magics, but not 9th level spells (though it did have 9th level slots), so it felt a bit restricted like a 10th level cleric/10th level wizard does.