Advice needed on DM-player conflict (long)

Okay, here's the situation. My group is in a RttToEE campaign, and the DM has decided that my PC is too powerful (and that archery in 3e is broken) and wants to retroactively remove some prestige classes. Although I figure that he gets the final word on it, since he is the DM, I'm currently arguing with him about the fact, so I wanted some input from you guys on whether I'm right or wrong.

Here's the party:
Arwan - Elf Wiz5(Necro)/Alienist4 (likes to fireball or magic missile everything)
Brandon - Human Rgr2/Clr8 of Kord (hacks stuff with a greatsword - period!)
Eranilor (My PC) - Rog5/Rgr3 (alternate)/Deepwood Sniper2 (archer cum scout)
Joshua (secondary PC I'm running) - Clr9 of St. Cuthbert (main divine caster & backup melee)
Tink - Kender Rog6/Wiz3 (great hide/move silent abilities - and that's about it)
[I've been running a secondary PC since we started with a smaller party, and since the player of Brandon does literally no spellcasting - although he's getting better]

Eranilor has 6 feats in archery and with comp. longbows (P.B.Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Far Shot, W.Focus, Imp. Critical), and with greater magic weapon spells from Brandon and Joshua, currently attacks at +24 to hit (+22/+22/+17 with Rapid Shot) and does 1d8 + 8 dmg per shot (1d8 + 11 at 30 ft vs. select opponents), with criticals at 18-20/x4 (due to the PrC).

The DM thinks archers are broken in 3e, because of the stacking of bow and arrow enchantments, and the fact that they do damage at range. I argued that the advantage melee combatants get is that they can choose to disarm, sunder, trip, make AoOs, change their AC and damage bonuses (Expertise, Power Attack) to suit the situation, deal subdual damage, etc., whereas archers can only hit and cause damage. The problem is that it's next to unnoticeable in this group since neither the PCs nor the NPCs and opponents we face ever do anything other than run at things and hit them. It took me a month of gaming to persuade them to flank opponents! Brandon has never used a single combat maneuver over 7 lvls (started at 4th) of gaming, and his player is getting peeved because my PC does more damage. According to my DM, a 10th lvl character consistently doing 40 pts of damage in a round and being able to hit ACs in the 40s on a good roll, is overpowered. I think a powerful PC should be able to do that. To a certain extent, I think I'm being penalised for making an effective character. In fact, during our last gaming session, we found Boots of Speed and the DM actually said that anyone could take them other than my PC, since that would make him more powerful. So Brandon (currently toting about 80,000 gp of magic items as a 10th lvl PC!) did.

The main problem is that I think my DM is both thinking of 2e power levels, and reacting to the high-level issues of 3e (he's never DM-ed at this level before), and having a knee-jerk reaction. So nerfing my PC won't solve anything, since there'll be problems as soon as Joshua starts casting Slay Living and Harm. I actually suggested that I give him (my DM) suggestions about how to challenge high-lvl characters in general (and archers in particular), but he didn't want that either. He also frequents these boards (doesn't post), so I suggested that he post for suggestions here, but he didn't want to do that either.

So, there's my problem. My DM is a nice guy and it's a fun group, so I don't want to jeopardise it. Am I right/wrong? What do I do? Any suggestions? And let me know if any of the above needs clarification. Thanks.

Sounds like your DM is lazy. Instead of properly challenging you or having the foes attack you in melee and other ways to ocassionally offset your bonuses he wants to just strip away stuff.

The only item over the top is your chance to hit. This is of course including spell enhancements that are not in effect all of the time and it doesnt even sound like you are going the extra step and getting Cats Grace to add even more bonuses.

My bet is your DM doesnt pressure the party enough. Do you guys get to rest whenever you feel like it? Do you basically get to throw all your good spells out there for every major encounter because you know you can just bed down for the night afterward?

If the answer is yes then the problem is the DM. He is letting the party off too easy and letting them overpower every encounter and thus max your characters abilities too often.

BTW, RTTTOEE is generally a huge dungeon crawl. How are you being so dominating in a dungeon environment? A good DM should be able to get a foe into melee range with you easily within a round or two of every combat.

My advice is to come up with so cool an idea that your group will be willing to put the current game on hold and let you DM for three or four sessions.

Start the group at first level (why you guys started at fourth without understanding how combat works is odd) and get everyone to learn how to play in some painless, seamless way. Over those three or four sessions, teach them everything you can, including how to remind people of the rules when they forget them without messing with people's karmic state at the gaming table. When these sessions are over, go back to the other game with this new-found knowledge.

Barring this, suck it up and try not spoil the game for anyone, including the DM by arguing the rules. You might know better, and believe that your only trying to help, but if a DM makes a call and you've continued to argue (your word, mind you, not mine) than you are hurting the game (and maybe, unbeknownst to you, breeding ill will with those you are trying to help).

Finally, ask the group if when you are finished with the current module, you can take a turn at DMing. If they agree, start off at first level and do it the way that best helps everyone to learn the rules and enjoy the game simultaneously.

Just my advice and not the only way, of course. Good luck.

DocMoriartty said:

Sounds like your DM is lazy. Instead of properly challenging you or having the foes attack you in melee and other ways to ocassionally offset your bonuses he wants to just strip away stuff.

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Considering the composition of the party, it's a little difficult for too many foes to get up in melee with my PC. Of course, the one time I ran into a melee opponent without backup, I lost the only magic bow I had, so it's not like it hasn't happened But it does happen very rarely. I do, however, think that there are ways to challenge an archer without necessarily giving him a chance to pincushion you.

The only item over the top is your chance to hit. This is of course including spell enhancements that are not in effect all of the time and it doesnt even sound like you are going the extra step and getting Cats Grace to add even more bonuses.

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I've actually got Gloves of Dex +2, so no need for Cat's Grace.

My bet is your DM doesnt pressure the party enough. Do you guys get to rest whenever you feel like it? Do you basically get to throw all your good spells out there for every major encounter because you know you can just bed down for the night afterward?

If the answer is yes then the problem is the DM. He is letting the party off too easy and letting them overpower every encounter and thus max your characters abilities too often.

BTW, RTTTOEE is generally a huge dungeon crawl. How are you being so dominating in a dungeon environment? A good DM should be able to get a foe into melee range with you easily within a round or two of every combat.

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Yup, we're resting comfortably every day. Joshua even stopped using Extend Spell on his buff spells because we adventure for 8-9 hrs in a day and then take a rest break till the next day. So effectively my PC has his enhancements up all the time that we're actually adventuring. And anytime we're low on spells we know we can take a break. Out of character, I'm somewhat surprised. In character, I don't understand it and am just waiting for the other boot to drop.

That right there (beyond his lack of complete understanding of the rules and how to abuse the PC's with them) is the real problem. He is running the adventure static. Basically nothing happens unless the PC's cause it to happen. So when the PC's stop kicking down doors for the day the entire Dungeon goes into sleep mode.

When a party KNOWS they never have to hold back because they can rest at will it seems to effectively increase their power by 2-3 levels.

If your DM actually threw some late night ambushes or had the cultists go proactive and go after them you would see party members drop like flies from being out of firepower. Then your party would conserve power and things would balance out.

shilsen said:

Yup, we're resting comfortably every day. Joshua even stopped using Extend Spell on his buff spells because we adventure for 8-9 hrs in a day and then take a rest break till the next day. So effectively my PC has his enhancements up all the time that we're actually adventuring. And anytime we're low on spells we know we can take a break. Out of character, I'm somewhat surprised. In character, I don't understand it and am just waiting for the other boot to drop.

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Mark said:

My advice is to come up with so cool an idea that your group will be willing to put the current game on hold and let you DM for three or four sessions.

Start the group at first level (why you guys started at fourth without understanding how combat works is odd) and get everyone to learn how to play in some painless, seamless way. Over those three or four sessions, teach them everything you can, including how to remind people of the rules when they forget them without messing with people's karmic state at the gaming table. When these sessions are over, go back to the other game with this new-found knowledge.

Barring this, suck it up and try not spoil the game for anyone, including the DM by arguing the rules. You might know better, and believe that your only trying to help, but if a DM makes a call and you've continued to argue (your word, mind you, not mine) than you are hurting the game (and maybe, unbeknownst to you, breeding ill will with those you are trying to help).

Finally, ask the group if when you are finished with the current module, you can take a turn at DMing. If they agree, start off at first level and do it the way that best helps everyone to learn the rules and enjoy the game simultaneously.

Just my advice and not the only way, of course. Good luck.

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I've actually done some DM-ing myself at the start of this year, giving my current DM a chance to take a break, and although the group enjoyed themselves, they don't seem to have picked much up.

We did start at first level, and I did take as many opportunities as possible to show the players the variety that is possible in 3e, both mechanically and otherwise. NPCs used to disarm, grapple, trip and otherwise do things that never happen in the current campaign. Spellcasters cast spells that don't get used that often (I think one NPC used a magic missile over 5 lvls). Touch attacks, alchemist's fire, and similar things were used. Animated tables pinned PCs to walls (okay, just once, but it was really fun for all concerned - except for the PC who now has a phobia of furniture ). The PCs did start doing more creative things. And then we stopped at 5th lvl and came back to the RttToEE and everyone went back to hitting things as hard as they can. I'll be DM-ing again a few months later, so I'll see if I can play up these angles. Weird thing is that of the 4 people in the group who've DM-ed, I have the least experience!

As for the argument bit, all the arguing about character power levels is happening out of game, so I'm not holding up the other players' enjoyment in game (I hope).

shilsen said:

Animated tables pinned PCs to walls...

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That, my friend, just made my day!

Sounds like you've already tried everything I could think of to help and have proceeded in the most diplomatic way possible. Maybe the next round of DMing, you can try a different approach to the teaching that will stick with them. *shrug*

How about setting up a game where they are all recruits in some sort of bootcamp where the drill sergeant actually shouts the moves in their faces?

OK. That's a joke, but using some similar game premise might be just as effective and be less intrusive.

[drill-segeant-mode]All right, Mister Posts-His-Problem-And-Gets-No-Help-From-The-Old-Markaroo! Back to the game and teach by example as much as you can![/drill-sergeant-mode]

We have the exact same issue in our group. We have an 8 party member group going into the outer fane and our archer literally wipes things out. He is a fighter/ranger/order of bow 4/3/2 and is looking towards deep woods sniper soon. He did 148 points of damage to a single target with two criticals last session. That may be an exception but as a rule he is +24 or so to hit and does 1d8+11 or so at 30 feet or less.

I play in the game and try to help the GM think of ways to limit his effectiveness. (I am also a GM for most of the same group on another day of the week)

The only problem the archer has now is the enemy has had ebough time to learn who is most dangerous and will work at taking him down first.

There isn't an easy solution but retroactively screwing you or limiting what you can do in a metagame way is wrong, You should both be able to come to an adult middle ground. Perhaps switch for a session with a melee guy and show them how effective they could be run compared to your archer.

Hopefully that helps

When I ran the very same adventure a player had an Initiate ot the Order of the Bow who was pretty similar to your character. The amounts of damage he dished out every round was staggering and we all felt that the PrC was a bit broken.

Later on when the fighters learned to use their Power Attack to it's most effective level we realised that the Initiate was not that broken after all. Nowadays our fighters (in another campaign) shaves 5-15 points off their to hit roll and adds it to damage instead, as default. This is all well and good until giants learn to do the same thing...

I think that your DM will realise that 3ed is a lot different from 2ed in many respects pretty soon. Once the characters hit the early teens one can't fail to recognize how things are balanced.

Melee r00ls.

Thoughts...

A few ideas for your "lazy DM..." (in decreasing order of believability/ease of execution)

Idea 1: Use cover and concealment! A 50% miss chance for full concealment is still 50% even if the guy has an attack bonus of +1,000!

Idea 2: the Deflect Arrows Feat

Idea 3: Add enemies that are more or less immune to piercing attacks (colossal skeletons, anyone?).

Idea 4 (my favorite): Permanenced Protection From Arrows Spell at 20th Caster Level

That provides the creature with the Permananced spell on it DR 10/+5 from every arrow you fire (not per round, per arrow).

From the SRD:
Masterwork ranged weapon bonuses to attack and masterwork ammunition (arrows, crossbow bolts, and sling bullets) attack bonuses stack with each other (but not with enhancement bonuses).

Unlike most enhancement bonuses, but similar to the way in which armor and shields work together, the enhancement bonuses of magic ranged weapons and magic ammunition stack for attack and damage purposes.

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That looks somewhat broken, but here comes the "rub..."

However, for purposes of damage reduction, the enhancement bonuses of a magic ranged weapon and magic ammunition do not stack. Only the ammunition’s enhancement bonus is applied against the damage reduction, since it is the only part of the weapon actually striking the creature.

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IOW, unless your archer has a bunch of +5 arrows, the creature will be getting damage reduction against all of your arrows. And if he does have +5 arrows, well, it's a pretty expensive way to bust through enemies.

The above are fairly simple to implement and will REALLY slow down an archer in a hurry.

If you start seeing these and your archer decreases in efficacy, all I can say is, "sorry."

--The Sigil