Arcane Riposte is Useless (Forked: The tragedy of 4th edition.)

Forked from: The tragedy of 4th edition.

Mourn said:

Nifft said:

Arcane Riposte

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What is the problem with this ability?

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It's useless, that's the problem.

When you're writing an attack power, you need to consider three things:

1/ Ability. Wizards tend to dump Dexterity, because they MUST pump Intelligence. Basing an attack on a tertiary ability is a bad idea.

2/ Tool. Every attack power is either Weapon or Implement. Know why? Because that +2 matters at 11th level.

3/ Target Defense. If you're targeting AC, your tool should be a Weapon, because the proficiency bonus matters.

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Arcane Riposte fails on all three counts. It's bad at 11th level, and gets worse every time you get a new magic tool (weapon or implement), and worse every time you bump your Int by +1.

It's probably a failed translation of "touch attack", by someone who didn't really understand what 4e was about.

Cheers, -- N

What? It works just fine. Only go into that PP if you're a wand mage who pumps dexterity as a secondary statistic.

Its not awe inspiring, but its better than taking opportunity attacks with a weapon as a wizard.

A regular wizard with a 10 strength is going to make weapon attacks at level/2 + proficiency + magical bonus on your weapon. Chances are that proficiency is +3 for a dagger. Magical bonus is probably low, because magic weapons are not a priority for a wizard. Damage will then be 1d4 + magical bonus. With a +1 dagger at level 11 (you spent your money on a fancy magical orb), that's an attack of +9 versus AC, damage 1d4+1. Switching to a staff changes your attack to +8 versus AC, damage 1d8+1.

In contrast, a wizard using Arcane Riposte with a dexterity of 16 (assuming 14 starting dex, two improvements, this could easily be higher if you are an eladrin) will attack at +8 for 1d8+3, without the hassle of keeping a weapon around. Also, you can choose energy types, which probably won't matter much, but we're talking about wizards taking opportunity attacks so odds are none of this is going to come up THAT often.

Cadfan said:

What? It works just fine. Only go into that PP if you're a wand mage who pumps dexterity as a secondary statistic.

Its not awe inspiring, but its better than taking opportunity attacks with a weapon as a wizard.

A regular wizard with a 10 strength is going to make weapon attacks at level/2 + proficiency + magical bonus on your weapon. Chances are that proficiency is +3 for a dagger. Magical bonus is probably low, because magic weapons are not a priority for a wizard. Damage will then be 1d4 + magical bonus. With a +1 dagger at level 11 (you spent your money on a fancy magical orb), that's an attack of +9 versus AC, damage 1d4+1. Switching to a staff changes your attack to +8 versus AC, damage 1d8+1.

In contrast, a wizard using Arcane Riposte with a dexterity of 16 (assuming 14 starting dex, two improvements, this could easily be higher if you are an eladrin) will attack at +8 for 1d8+3, without the hassle of keeping a weapon around. Also, you can choose energy types, which probably won't matter much, but we're talking about wizards taking opportunity attacks so odds are none of this is going to come up THAT often.

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See to me what you just demonstrated was that Arcane Riposte is pretty damn near worthless even for the one supposedly "bad" type of Wizard who could make best use of it. Interesting that you see it differently, though.

Also, won't the Wizard, if he's a staff-wizard, have a magical staff with +hit and damage on it?

Cadfan said:

Only go into that PP if you're a wand mage who pumps dexterity as a secondary statistic.

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Yep, that's the key, I think. Certain powers and power paths in D&D 4e are designed to facilitate some fairly specific character concepts, not serve as the all around, general purpose, edge granters that feats and feat paths did in 3x. I know that it's taking me some time to get familiar with the concept. I see I'm not alone in this regard

Cadfan said:

What? It works just fine. Only go into that PP if you're a wand mage who pumps dexterity as a secondary statistic.

Its not awe inspiring, but its better than taking opportunity attacks with a weapon as a wizard.

A regular wizard with a 10 strength is going to make weapon attacks at level/2 + proficiency + magical bonus on your weapon. Chances are that proficiency is +3 for a dagger. Magical bonus is probably low, because magic weapons are not a priority for a wizard. Damage will then be 1d4 + magical bonus. With a +1 dagger at level 11 (you spent your money on a fancy magical orb), that's an attack of +9 versus AC, damage 1d4+1. Switching to a staff changes your attack to +8 versus AC, damage 1d8+1.

In contrast, a wizard using Arcane Riposte with a dexterity of 16 (assuming 14 starting dex, two improvements, this could easily be higher if you are an eladrin) will attack at +8 for 1d8+3, without the hassle of keeping a weapon around. Also, you can choose energy types, which probably won't matter much, but we're talking about wizards taking opportunity attacks so odds are none of this is going to come up THAT often.

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At lvl 11 you can barely hit the broadside of a barn with your cool new attack (at -5 compared to the baseline expectation at best, 2 from weapon plus, 2 from prof bonus, 1 from stat). It only gets worse with time (you are falling behind the "expected" to-hit total at the rate of +0.2/level due to no enhancement bonus, IF you are pumping dex). Remember, you aren't comparing this ability to a dagger AoO. You need to measure the absolute power of this ability: laughable.

Note further however that you also stand a good chance of eating a damage *downgrade* because, with your awful to-hits, crits will make up a disproportionate fraction of your hits (until you need 21s to hit, which WILL happen, but by then your ability is utterly irrelevant) and so the dagger will get extra d6s (d12s if vicious). Further, the dagger is doing 2d4 in Epic.

Yeah. I emailed CustServ about it.

My answer is to give it +4/+6 in Paragon/Epic tier, as that seems what they're doing with non-proficiencies. And that barely helps, it just makes it make more sense. Being based off of Dex is fine, because a wand wizard will keep their dex within 4 points of their int.

You could also give it the Implement keyword, and make it target Reflex, instead.

Yes, though, it's possibly the worst class ability in the game at the moment.

Kraydak said:

Further, the dagger is doing 2d4 in Epic.

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Can you direct to where it states that a wizard making a basic melee attack (opportunity) is going to be dealing 2[W]?

Ruin Explorer said:

See to me what you just demonstrated was that Arcane Riposte is pretty damn near worthless even for the one supposedly "bad" type of Wizard who could make best use of it. Interesting that you see it differently, though.

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Wand wizards are bad?

Honestly, I'd have powered the ability up if I designed it, simply because wizards taking opportunity attacks is so rare given the wizard's lousy armor class and hit points, and his desire not to be near combat. You need the dex/int wizard to be in melee reach of a foe, AND for the foe to provoke an opportunity attack. Doesn't happen often. So given its rarity, I'd have gone and made the ability add ongoing damage or something, or count as a "power" for the purposes of feats which grant bonuses when you use powers with certain keywords, or something along those lines.

Ruin Explorer said:

Also, won't the Wizard, if he's a staff-wizard, have a magical staff with +hit and damage on it?

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Is that how that works? I've been a little shaky on the whole implement/weapon thing. It hasn't come up in my game (nor will it given the choices made by our only wizard) so I haven't bothered to enlighten myself.

How do the numbers work out if you change Arcane Riposte to be based off of Int and give it the implement keyword? It's such a niche power anyway, doesn't seem it'd hurt it to buff it.

Cadfan said:

What? It works just fine. Only go into that PP if you're a wand mage who pumps dexterity as a secondary statistic.

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No, it's bad even for that guy.

In order to have a Dex attack merely two below your Int attack, you'd need to start with a 14 Dex and pump it every chance you get. This means two things:

1/ You will be screwing one of your other Defenses.
2/ You will be neglecting the value of the Second Implement feat.

(Now, IMHO Wand Wizards would be inferior even if they used a non-overlapping secondary ability score like Charisma, but that's neither here nor there.)

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But let's look at this all-Dex guy. He's 11th level, and he's got a Dexterity of 19 (16 +3 level boosts) for a +4 bonus to his attack. He's confronted by an 11th level Minion who provokes an OA. 11th level minions are:
- Angel of Valor Cohort: AC 25
- Legion Devil Hellguard: AC 27
- Ogre Thug: AC 23

He's got a total of +9 to attack (5 level +4 Dexterity), which means he has to roll a 14 to hit the lowest AC Minion of his level. Note that Minions have an AC below that of Soldiers.

The discrepancy gets progressively worse at higher levels, because the PCs are assumed to be using magic weapons & implements.

It's a bad ability and it should be re-written.

ST said:

How do the numbers work out if you change Arcane Riposte to be based off of Int and give it the implement keyword? It's such a niche power anyway, doesn't seem it'd hurt it to buff it.

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Then it works fine, of course.

Cheers, -- N