Virtual Hit Dice/Levels: An Integrated Solution to Max. & Starting Skill Ranks/Points

Roman

First Post
The Pathfinder RPG skill system is pretty good, nonetheless there are still some issues with the system. The first is that all the pre-requisites (especially those for feats and prestige classes) depending on skill ranks now require some extra calculations, which makes backward compatibility slightly more difficult. The second is that at first level PFRPG characters are skill-point poor compared to their 3.5E counterparts, which makes it difficult to flesh out a character at that level. There is a way to bypass both of these problems to some extent by using the system described below.

Virtual hit dice or virtual levels (I will use the two terms interchangeably) are a tool for assigning characters various starting characteristics that would normally depend on their class in a class-neutral manner. This ensures that the order of classes taken when multi-classing does not give a given character any undue advantages or disadvantages.

Every character gets 3 virtual hit dice at the beginning of the game. These do not count as hit dice or levels for any pre-requisites, effects or other considerations, unless explicitly specified in the text below.

Just like normal hit dice or levels, virtual hit dice also count towards determining the maximum ranks a character can have in a skill. Because there are 3 virtual levels or hit dice given at character inception, at (normal) level 1, a character will be able to have a maximum of 4 ranks in any single skill.

Virtual hit dice grant skill points. How many do they grant? It is prudent to consider some statistical facts about skill points and hit dice/levels:

Commoner as base for virtual HD: 2 + Int. bonus / die
Humanoid as base for virtual HD: 2 + Int. bonus / die
Warrior as base for virtual HD: 2 + Int. bonus / die

Lowest: 2 + Int. bonus / die
Medium-Low: 4 + Int. bonus / die
Medium-High: 6 + Int. bonus / die
Highest: 8 + Int. bonus / die

Mean of Possibilities: 5 + Int. bonus / die

Mode of NPC Classes: 2 + Int. bonus / die
Mean of NPC Classes: ~3 + Int. bonus / die
Median of NPC Classes: 2 + Int. bonus / die

Mode of PC Classes: 2 + Int. bonus / die
Mean of PC Classes: ~4 + Int. bonus / die
Median of PC Classes: 4 + Int. bonus / die

The above are the available choices for the skill point of virtual levels. Virtual hit dice can probably best be based on two possible approaches: lowest progression or average progression. For skills I would prefer to give virtual hit dice the average progression of PC classes, which would result in: 4 + Int. bonus / virtual hit die skill points.

The extra skill point per level that humans normally receive would apply normally, so humans would receive 5 + Int. bonus skill points per virtual hit die. If my suggestion of replacing the 1 hit point per level favored class bonus with a 1 skill point per level favored class bonus gets adopted, than the virtual hit dice are automatically treated as a favored class for all characters and they get their extra skill point per virtual hit die and it stacks with the extra human skill point.

It should be noted that using virtual hit dice will lead to a different number of starting skill points for some characters than they had in D&D 3.5 edition. Clerics, Fighters, Paladins, Sorcerers and Wizards will get 6 extra skill points at character creation, which I think would be more positive than negative. They can use these to flesh out their characters at the beginning and their skill point progression thereafter will be equal to what it was in 3.5E. Barbarians, Druids and Monks would receive the same amount of skill points as in 3.5E. Bards and Rangers would lose 6 skill points overall, whereas Rogues would be down by 12 skill points. Because these losses are precisely defined, they could be compensated.

(Note: Non-core classes would experience analogous effects.)

Compensation for the lost skill points could come in various forms. It would be possible to simply give the bards and rangers bonus 6 skill points and rogues bonus 12 skill points upon taking the first level of the class (thus the order of when the class is taken wouldn’t matter), though this might encourage one level dipping into these classes to obtain the extra skill points. It could be possible to spread these bonus skill points across several levels to mitigate this effect. Alternatively, these classes could get other forms of compensation, such as an extra feat for bards or rangers or two extra feats for rogues (based on the Open-Minded feat that grants 5 skill points) or altogether different abilities, perhaps aiding their skills (say +X bonus to several class skills if trained [or perhaps if maxed]), or the ability to advance in a ‘skill group’ appropriate to their class, or something similar.

The simplest solution would probably be to just give them the skill points they lost, but spread them over several levels. This could be done symmetrically (say 2 or 3 of the skill points per level until the loss is fully compensated, or asymmetrically, for example: 2 skill points at level one, 4 skill points at level two and 6 skill points at level three. The last step would, of course, be for rogues or non-core 8 skill point per level classes. The asymmetric method is predicated on the assumption that level dipping gets progressively less likely the more levels you are required to take to gain the full benefit of the desired goodies (in this case skill points), so ramping up the benefits across levels will mitigate level dipping significantly.

Note 1: Virtual hit dice are a design mechanic that could underlie character creation, but they would not necessarily need to be actually mentioned in the book even if used as a concept. It would be possible to simply state that a character can have maximum skill ranks equal to 3 + level and gets 12 + Class Skill Points + 4 x Intelligence Bonus skill points at character creation and so on. There is no need to actually state that some of these things come from virtual hit dice, though if it is desired to help people understand the basis of it, there is, of course, no problem in talking about virtual hit dice explicitly.

Note 2: I have considered an alternative of simply giving three free NPC class (Commoner, Aristocrat, Expert, Warrior or Adept) levels at the point of character creation or even letting each player choose which or even a combination of them, but that approach led to some problems that were a little less easily manageable than simply using virtual hit dice.

Note 3: The concept of virtual hit dice could be extended to also doing other things, such as granting a hit point bonus at level 1.

Note 4: An interesting variation of virtual hit dice would be virtual racial hit dice, which would differ depending on race. This would still fulfill the same goal as standard virtual hit dice, but would allow for greater differentiation among the races. For example, each race would then effectively grant a number of bonus skill points at character creation.

Note 5: The equal cost of class and cross-class skills in Pathfinder RPG should stay under the virtual hit dice system, as should the 1/2 maximum limit on cross class skill ranks, but the +3 bonus to class skills would disappear.
 

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Roman

First Post
I just want to add that this concept, especially if extended further than skill points, by adding hit points (and possibly other boni) based on virtual hit dice, could be used to also work around some of the problems with Level Adjustments.

Pathfinder races are already more powerful than the core races in 3.5E, but they are not quite LA +1. As such, LA +1 races could be turned into LA +0 races by losing one (or more) virtual hit die instead of normal hit dice/levels. That means the characters in question would not lose out in their areas of core competence, such as spellcasting or BAB, but would nonetheless have lower maximum skill ranks, fewer skill points (and perhaps fewer hit points and one less feat, if virtual hit dice were made to grant those).
 


Turanil

First Post
There is potential in it. I had written a long post yesterday, but then the browser crashed, and everything written was lost. I am too lazy to write it again. I will just summarize it:

Idea sound interesting, but I would do that:

1) There is indeed three levels, but the 1st and 2nd are considered zero-level. So basic zero-level commoners have two such levels and that's all. These are low-powered class levels, with +1 to the good save, +0 BAB, number of skill-points (i.e.: 2, 4, 6, or 8), and 1 hit-die, either d4, d6, d8, or d10. There is something like d10 goes with 2 skill points, d8 with 4 skill points, etc. No feat, no special abilities.

2) 1st level of adventuring class (fighter, wizard, etc.) is added on top of these two, with the following changes: subtract 2 points from best save progression, skill-points are not multiplied, hit-points are rolled normally instead of maximum for the die.

3) The hit-points from the first two levels are physical/wound hit-points while the hit-points gained thereafter from the adventuring class levels, are considered vitality hit-points. Vitality hit-points are recovered as per the rules (night of sleep, spells, etc.) and their loss do not incur any penalty. On the other hand, for each wound hp lost, character is actually injured and gets a -1 cumulative penalty to all rolls; then recovery of hp is much longer, requiring magic or physician care.

4) LA+1 or LA+2 races reduce the number of these two initial levels, though this requires further thinking.

5) Personally, I would add this houserule to E7 (like E6 but going up to the 7th level).
 
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Roman

First Post
There is potential in it. I had written a long post yesterday, but then the browser crashed, and everything written was lost.

Sorry for the belated response, but the fact that somebody replied to this thread somehow slipped under my radar and I came across it again only now.

Idea sound interesting, but I would do that:

1) There is indeed three levels, but the 1st and 2nd are considered zero-level. So basic zero-level commoners have two such levels and that's all. These are low-powered class levels, with +1 to the good save, +0 BAB, number of skill-points (i.e.: 2, 4, 6, or 8), and 1 hit-die, either d4, d6, d8, or d10. There is something like d10 goes with 2 skill points, d8 with 4 skill points, etc. No feat, no special abilities.

2) 1st level of adventuring class (fighter, wizard, etc.) is added on top of these two, with the following changes: subtract 2 points from best save progression, skill-points are not multiplied, hit-points are rolled normally instead of maximum for the die.

3) The hit-points from the first two levels are physical/wound hit-points while the hit-points gained thereafter from the adventuring class levels, are considered vitality hit-points. Vitality hit-points are recovered as per the rules (night of sleep, spells, etc.) and their loss do not incur any penalty. On the other hand, for each wound hp lost, character is actually injured and gets a -1 cumulative penalty to all rolls; then recovery of hp is much longer, requiring magic or physician care.

4) LA+1 or LA+2 races reduce the number of these two initial levels, though this requires further thinking.

5) Personally, I would add this houserule to E7 (like E6 but going up to the 7th level).

My initial attempt at this was indeed based on adding NPC class levels or racial hit dice/levels onto the front end of character progression. That, however, causes some unnecessary complication with BAB and other issues, so I settled on virtual hit dice instead, where we can control exactly what they give the character.

BTW: I am not really familiar with E6 or E7, a quick look on the internet suggests that these are essentially D&D limited to first 6 or 7 levels. Is that correct?
 

ruemere

Adventurer
In one of the most beutiful OGL products sitting on my shelf, Black Company, by Robert J. Schwalb and Owen K.C. Stephens, released by Green Ronin, there is a great idea for solving similar problem (it's just one of many great ideas there, so run, don't walk, and get the book if you don't have it already): Backgrounds.

In short, choose a Background for your character and gain the following benefits:

Skills: 4 skill points to distribute among four skills associated with your background.

Bonus feat: Choice of either (+2/+2 skill related to your background) or Skill Focus (to one of skills listed in Skills section).

Background Trait: Unique bonus (additional wealth, skill or save +1 bonus).

Favored Class: Class to be considered Favored for your character.

Iconic Character: (no need to explain, right?)


There is also a random table with 24 Backgrounds, among which you get likes of: Aristocrat, Beggar, Priest, Tomb Robber, Tribesman.

In other words, this is a great way to expand pre-level-one character story (Paladin with Tomb Robber background would make for a nice plot hook, right?).

Regards,
Ruemere
 

Roman

First Post
As to the hit point progression I alluded to in my initial post, I would suggest that each virtual level grants 2 hit points. This is a mean of d4 (2.5), rounded down (probably better if it was a fixed hit point gain, not modified by Constitution or rolls, though this is certainly debatable). As such, all characters would have an extra 6 hit points at level 1 (which conveniently comes to the same number as a maximized d6, the lowest hit die now used in Pathfinder), though we could then get rid of the maximum hit points at first level rule, which would make multiclassing fairer.

Summary of what each virtual level gives:

V1: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2)
V2: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2)
V3: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2)

Each virtual level represents what is lost when a race with an LA is taken. One point of LA removes one virtual level until all virtual levels are lost at which point normal class levels are removed. Consequently a character who has a LA 1 race has only two virtual levels, rather than the full three. A character with a race that gives a whopping LA of 4 has no virtual levels left at all and loses one of his class levels on top of that.
 
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Roman

First Post
The above system could be extended further. Consider that the saving throw and the feat progressions could be regressed back to virtual levels. Hence, V3 would grant a +1 bonus to all saving throws and V2 would grant a feat. The only problem with this is that V1 would grant nothing, so losing V3 and V2 would be more painful than losing V1. Of course, regressing the ability score progression, V3 should also grant a +1 bonus to one ability score. Although it would deviate from how the progression should regress, we could move this +1 bonus to one ability score to V1.

Table summary of regressed progressions:

V1: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2)
V2: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2), Feat (1)
V3: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2), Saving throws (+1 to all), Ability score (+1)


Table summary of rebalanced regressed progressions (ability score bonus moved from V3 to V1 for greater equality between the value of levels):

V1: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2), Ability score (+1)
V2: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2), Feat (1)
V3: Skill points (4 + Int. bonus); Skill rank ceiling (+1); Hit points (2), Saving throws (+1 to all)
 

Roman

First Post
It bears noting that without some modifications, the above-mentioned extended system of virtual levels makes the characters somewhat more powerful at level 1, than they would ordinarily be in Pathfinder. It is possible to mollify this concern partially, by slight alterations to the progressions themselves.


Saving throws, for example, could be rearranged along these lines:

Poor saving throw bonus remains the same as in 3.5E
Good saving throw bonus is always one lower than in 3.5E

All saving throws receive a +1 from virtual level 3.


Alternative notation:


Level Base Saving Throw Bonus
Good Poor

V1 +1 +0
V2 +1 +0
V3 +2 +1
C1 +2 +1
C2 +3 +1
C3 +3 +2
C4 +4 +2
C5 +4 +2
C6 +5 +3
C7 +5 +3
C8 +6 +3
C9 +6 +4
C10 +7 +4
C11 +7 +4
C12 +8 +5
C13 +8 +5
C14 +9 +5
C15 +9 +6
C16 +10 +6
C17 +10 +6
C18 +11 +7
C19 +11 +7
C20 +12 +7

V = Virtual Level
C = Class Level

As you can see, it is just a difference of presentation. The good save progression stays the same and the poor saving throw progression is exactly one point better than it used to be in 3.5E. That is acceptable, I think, as one of the compaints about 3.5E is the excessive spread between good and bad saving throws anyway.
 

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