WotC CS answers some Stealth and Shadow Walk questions

buzz · Jul 28, 2008

Some recent threads prompted me to see what light WotC customer service could shed on Stealth. Here's the questions I sent and the responses I received. The CS response are highlighted.

Me: If a PC begins a move without Cover/Concealment, but enters an area with Cover/Concealment at some point during their move, are they allowed to make a Stealth check as part of the move action? Or, must a PC begin an action in an area with Cover/Concealment in order to use Stealth?

[highlight]CS: As part of your move action into another area that offers cover/concealment, you can make a stealth check.[/highlight]

Me: Related: the warlock's Shadow Walk ability says the warlock gains Concealment if they "move at least three squares away" from where they started their turn. Does the Concealment occur mid-move, i.e., when the warlock reaches that third square, or must the whole move action be completed first?

[highlight]CS: You would gain concealment after moving.[/highlight]

Me: Also, i it possible to use Stealth as an action in and of itself? For examaple, if a PC attacks, then moves, and then uses a Minor action to simply hide?

[highlight]CS: You cannot just hide. It needs to be part of an action you are trying to perform stealthily.[/highlight]

clearstream · Jul 28, 2008

buzz said:
Me: If a PC begins a move without Cover/Concealment, but enters an area with Cover/Concealment at some point during their move, are they allowed to make a Stealth check as part of the move action? Or, must a PC begin an action in an area with Cover/Concealment in order to use Stealth?

[highlight]CS: As part of your move action into another area that offers cover/concealment, you can make a stealth check.[/highlight]

I agree with this, but let's see them produce wording for it. My issue with stealth and moving is not that you can't enter and exit squares gaining and losing hiding as you do so, but that it produces so many branches and conditionals it's hard to write good rules for. I've said as much elsewhere. As a consequence, in my Streamlined rulings I suggest making one check at the end of movement and counting hiding only in that last square, which works fine in a great many cases.

buzz said:
Me: Also, i it possible to use Stealth as an action in and of itself? For examaple, if a PC attacks, then moves, and then uses a Minor action to simply hide?

[highlight]CS: You cannot just hide. It needs to be part of an action you are trying to perform stealthily.[/highlight]

I believe you need to describe your minor action as 'hunkering down to hide' and then Stealth works with it. Likewise, you can Move 0 and hide. It would be interesting if they could go case by case through every action in the book (Dwarven Resilience? Second Wind?) and tell us how they're figuring out which can be done stealthily and which can't? That'd be helpful in working out Stealth.

It's possible your question amounted to asking 'Can I do a minor action?' and got the predictable response. You cannot do a 'minor action' any more than you can do a 'standard action'.

Elsewhere there's a CS response allowing someone to stealthily open a door. Opening a door is a minor action.

-vk

Hypersmurf · Jul 28, 2008

vonklaude said:
Oh pshaw. Yes, you need to describe your minor action as 'hunkering down to hide' and then Stealth works with it.

The problem is determining what "Stealth works with it" means. A common interpretation is that using Stealth as part of an action doesn't necessarily conceal you, but rather conceals the action. You draw your dager stealthily - does that mean that suddenly you can't be seen? Or that nobody noticed you draw the dagger?

Let's say I'm in a square with concealment (it's dim light, or misty, or something), and I take a minor action to drop prone while using the Stealth skill. My skill check is successful against my observer. What effect does the skill have?

a/ I'm hidden from the observer. He can't see me, and doesn't know where I went.
b/ The observer can still see me, but since my action of dropping prone was concealed, it hasn't registered with him that I'm prone.
c/ The observer can see me, and can see that I'm prone, but he has no idea how I got there...

-Hyp.

Kordeth · Jul 28, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
The problem is determining what "Stealth works with it" means. A common interpretation is that using Stealth as part of an action doesn't necessarily conceal you, but rather conceals the action. You draw your dager stealthily - does that mean that suddenly you can't be seen? Or that nobody noticed you draw the dagger?

Sneakily drawing a dagger is a product of Sleight of Hand, a use of the Thievery skill. The Success entry for Stealoth is quite clear: you avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. Stealth is the skill used to hide yourself, not to perform an action without that action being noticed. That's why you have to have cover or concealment.

Let's say I'm in a square with concealment (it's dim light, or misty, or something), and I take a minor action to drop prone while using the Stealth skill. My skill check is successful against my observer. What effect does the skill have?

a/ I'm hidden from the observer. He can't see me, and doesn't know where I went.
b/ The observer can still see me, but since my action of dropping prone was concealed, it hasn't registered with him that I'm prone.
c/ The observer can see me, and can see that I'm prone, but he has no idea how I got there...

-Hyp.

Apart from the fact that A is the only one that makes even the tiniest bit of actual logical sense, it's also the one that meshes with the rules. So A.

buzz · Jul 28, 2008

vonklaude said:
Likewise, you can Move 0 and hide.
...
It's possible your question amounted to asking 'Can I do a minor action?' and got the predictable response. You cannot do a 'minor action' any more than you can do a 'standard action'.

I asked that way because I saw people here on ENworld talking about "hiding as a Minor action." So, yeas, I agree that you need to be doing something.

And, "Move 0" sounds utterly bogus to me, no offense. That's not rules-kosher by any stretch.

Hypersmurf · Jul 28, 2008

Kordeth said:
Sneakily drawing a dagger is a product of Sleight of Hand, a use of the Thievery skill. The Success entry for Stealoth is quite clear: you avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. Stealth is the skill used to hide yourself, not to perform an action without that action being noticed. That's why you have to have cover or concealment.

So if the character uses the Stealth skill as part of the Draw a Weapon action (assuming he has concealment), he suddenly can't be seen? It was one of the two options offered in the post you quoted.

-Hyp.

Kordeth · Jul 28, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
So if the character uses the Stealth skill as part of the Draw a Weapon action (assuming he has concealment), he suddenly can't be seen? It was one of the two options offered in the post you quoted.

-Hyp.

Yep. Think of it as something like: "I slink back into the shadows, quietly slipping my blade from its sheath."

Obviously, the DM has final say in whether an action is appropriate for use with Stealth, and should adjust his descriptions accordingly. Opening a door isn't going to make you suddenly vanish, for example, but it can be described as the character being extremely quick and/or quiet in opening the door such that enemies don't notice him doing it.

Hypersmurf · Jul 28, 2008

Kordeth said:
Opening a door isn't going to make you suddenly vanish, for example, but it can be described as the character being extremely quick and/or quiet in opening the door such that enemies don't notice him doing it.

So in this case, Stealth is the skill you use to perform an action without that action being noticed?

-Hyp.

RigaMortus2 · Jul 28, 2008

buzz said:
I asked that way because I saw people here on ENworld talking about "hiding as a Minor action." So, yeas, I agree that you need to be doing something.

And, "Move 0" sounds utterly bogus to me, no offense. That's not rules-kosher by any stretch.

A character who has a speed of 6 can move up to 6 squares (or 30 feet) on the battle grid by using a move action.

If you can move up to 6 squares, doesn't that also mean you can move less than 6 squares? Moving 0 squares is moving less than 6 squares...

Kordeth · Jul 28, 2008

Hypersmurf said:
So in this case, Stealth is the skill you use to perform an action without that action being noticed?

-Hyp.

No, it's the skill you use to perform an action without being noticed yourself. Alert enemies will pretty quickly notice that the door that was shut 6 seconds ago is now open, but if you do it stealthily they don't notice you opening it. Whether they notice the intrinsic act of the door itself being opened (and thus react with "who opened that door?!") or don't notice the open door till later, maybe on their turn (and thus react with "how did that door get open?!") is something that would have to be resolved by the DM's judgment.

WotC CS answers some Stealth and Shadow Walk questions

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