What kind of encounters would you prepare for 8 first level PCs?

I've often found problems designing proper encounters for vastly larger numbers of lower level PCs. With higher level characters you can put them into a normally overwhelming threat, like fighting any sort of dragon, and expect them to come out bloodied but not completely broken. With lower level characters, one good NPC fighter or creature with supernatural abilities like regeneration or hefty damage reduction can be absolutely impossible to take down without luck...

Increasing the size of encounters has worked at times, but more often than not that seems to lend itself too much to cannon-fodder feelings for opponents that should never be treated like that. Some solutions that have worked involve battles that basically involve fighting in two directions, effectively splitting the power and defense of the party but still allowing coordination on both sides (such as trying to fight off flying opponents with ranged weapons and land based opponents at the same time).

The DMG gives a little vague advice about how challenge ratings are effected by these kind of circumstances, but experience tells me that group numbers have a much more varied effect than CR ever would. 8 PCs means that on average 4 of them will be above a given initiative and 4 below, and in low levels that can be enough to cut any reasonable encounter in half.

This is just a little personal rambling on the circumstances, but mayhaps you would like to throw some of your opinions and experiences into the ring concerning the subject. It seems discussion worthy enough. Mayhaps some of you would like to throw some encounter ideas that are effectively most fun with large groups of PCs.

What I like to do is design an encounter multiple ways. I'll first throw then up against a few creatures, just to see how they do. And then based on those encounters, I either go with the easy medium or hard version of the next encounters.

Creamsteak said:

I've often found problems designing proper encounters for vastly larger numbers of lower level PCs.... Mayhaps some of you would like to throw some encounter ideas that are effectively most fun with large groups of PCs.

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In the last couple of years, I've run a campaign with as many as 9 characters (frequently all of the players have been present ) and have come up with a solution that works for my group. I've stolen it from 80's video games: waves.

Put the PCs in a tight area and have them fight a small group, but give them info that more are coming. For instance, maybe there's another group of guards higher up on a switchback that have to take a few rounds to run down to engage. At other times, I keep a few monsters in reserve, maybe hidden or using invisibility.

The nice thing about #1 is that the players can retreat or buff before the next group arrives, if they need to. For #2, I can exercise a different kind of judgement. If that one critter is kicking their butts, then the other two that are invisible just don't exist anymore.

I've found this to work no matter what the party's level is. You can toss more baddies at them if they're doing well, but it provides a relatively easy way out if things are going badly.

1) Sightings - Players are not the only ones to fail Hide and Move Silently checks. Never give enough to know the exact creatures, but enough to have a few suspects for the PCs to make basic plans.
OOC knowledge deserves a d50 upside the noggin...

2) Pick a few off- Sleep poisons (blowguns, arrows, spells), subdual damage (very underrated), ability damage. Helps to get the PCs numbers down to the base CR/EL usually recommended (see 3).
This way they have time to make plans for moving on or withdrawal. Helps to avoid a potential 'be damned if they will take me' mode of thought.
The more time they have to think and plan should increase survival chances.

3) Waves - I love waves... the sun setting, the lap lap lap of the kobolds/goblins/ettercaps... nothing better. Waves also give players with 'out off action' PCs a chance to use some NPCs and help out the DM to boot. Waves allow a steady increase of enemy strength as well as PC increase of 'let us get out of here!' (hopefully).

4) Deception - all of the above lets one go and slap everyone up side the head with an odd situation that was not really a given with previous information. Instead of a hobgoblin or two leading goblins switch to some renegade/exiled Lizardfolk. Who being away from their marsh areas have gotten ill (so one could use more of them)... well ill enough for the PCs to defeat if not the gobs.

There is always spliting up a big party... >shiver<.


Hagy
Vermont

Edit:
Castellan beat me to the waves... what I get for watch the tube while typing.

More encounters between rests is a good idea. For 1st levellers, increasing the number of monsters encountered seems reasonably easy, though - 8 goblins instead of 4, 4 orcs instead of 2, or 2 orcs and 4 goblins, say. Creatures with DR and creatures of CR 3+ should generally be avoided though - eg ogres will kill PCs with 1 hit. Bugbears (CR2) may be ok, though.

Be careful just increasing the number of monsters without employing "staggered" type encounters like waves. The reason is that if you just increase the monsters (ie: 8 for 8 PCs) what really happens is that the front line guys get doubled up or tripled up with foes. That becomes really deadly for the PCs (particlarly if you use something brutal like orcs with greataxes and x3 criticals or my favorite the falchion and 18-20/x2 crits).

The real question is party composition. If you have 5 fighter types and 3 non-fighter types (a cleric, wizard and rogue) then they can handle more monsters. But if you have still only 2 pure fighters and the rest are bards and rogues and monks and sorcerers then you should really watch out for increasing numbers.

If the larger number of PCs doesnt include at least half pure combat PCs, you might consider a smaller number of larger monsters that have more hp (since there are more PCs and more individual attacks by the PCs can be focused on one or two monsters) but make sure the monsters dont have HUGE damage ability. 3 or 4 bugbears might be a good idea (as opposed to say 6 orcs). They only hit +1 better than orcs but they have 3 hd and live a little longer.

You can also run "staggered" encounters--like the "waves" that people mention above. The undead graveyard is the classic example. 4 skeletons rise from one area, they are dispatched and 4 zombies rise from another area, then when they are done a shadow emerges or something like that.

You can cinematically stitch several smaller encounters together because the greater number of PCs allows them to go longer without rest since they can swap out PCs--ie: one fighter is beat up so the next takes his place while the cleric heals the first guy.

Clark

Our GM recently used a hag coven that was held up in a cave full of lava, note these were 8th lvl characters, the hags would have been a challange on their own but the lava, and the fear of falling in made us fight differently.

Near the end of the battle my character fell off the ledge into the lava and discovered that it was actually ground and the whole lava thing was just an illusion.

Throw your players off balance, make the Weapon Spec- Bst swd fighter pull a bow and the archer use a sword. How? Split them up then throw fliers at the WP- Bst Swd and smal close end combatants at the archer.

Waves work and to a cleric turning undead it makes them think about- 'should I turn this group? Or the next?'

Good luck, hope that helps at least a little bit

For mid to high level PCs, the classic village in danger could work. All that power could fortify a village nicely from attack before hand, and the fighters could organize a militia. Then when the tide of orcs come, one or two PCs could each watch over a unit of villagers. The mega HP Fighter or Barbarian could take the brunt of the attack by creating a pinch point, say near a gate or a building doorway, while villagers could use polearms to fight around him, shoot arrows from windows, ect. Spell casters with buffs or area affect spells would up the survival rate of low level commoners. A Bless and Mass Cure Light Wounds here, a Mass invisibility there. It would make a lot of lower level spells usefull again, and they would be able to put a lot out there. Could also be interesting to see if they use up higher level spell slots to help the villagers and go "naked" into battle, as opposed to buffed out the wazzu as normal. Even simply placing a lost child in danger could force one or two PCs to hold back to prevent the child from being harmed or taken.

A similar idea would be to split the party with a natural/not so natural disaster. A village is a lot of ground to cover. If a fire started to spread, both homes and crops/herds would need saving, not to mention the nearby woods for the party Druid. And if this fire was sparked by a couple of uppity fire elementals, the fighters could find their spell power gone to stop the spreading flames.

Forcing the PCs to search large areas quickly. The ruins of a great city that hold a secret door that can only be seen on one day/night per year means no chance to take a 20 for the party Rogue. Even without the obvious splitting of the party, massive areas, such as the Mines of Moria, simply couldn't be searched by one person. They remain together, but forced to do things that are not specialties.


Likewise, most movies have climaxes where everyone is doing something different. The Fighters could be holding swarms of mad cultist out of the alter room while the Wizard cast a spell to shatter the alter that will raise a monster the do not want to face, (see DR or abilities from earlier posts), while the Rogue attemptas to open the secret door for a quick escape. Naturally the cultists are overwhelming in number, the spell takes at least a minute to cast, and the secret exit is gaurded by a minor creature, something a Rogue could easily kill, in a round or two... Even fighting in a room with multiple entrances leads to the party needing to hold seperate ground while still being able to back each other up to a degree. You don't want to give up the choke points or you'll be mobed, but the Cleric can still get to everyone.

Basically, you need to group two or more things together that make each other interesting. Most terrain can be avoided, for example. A steep ledge can be beat by a typical Rogue and some rope, no climb checks needed for the rest of the party. Small earth elementals are no real threat, save in large numbers. Put the two together, and you either have a Rogue fighting them alone, or a lot of nervous PCs wishing they had more ranks in balance.

Something strong enough to kill off half of 'em.

Let me respond by remembering a thread that appeared here a year or two ago. The topic of the thread was what was the best villian ever in D&D. most people mentioned badies from the various novels, other people mentioned races, like the illithid.

My response to that question was that the best villian in the history of D&D is that 4th level evil cleric that every party of 1st level adventurers wacks at the end of their first dungeon... He's just down there chilling at the bottom of his dungeon, with a few undead shamblig around that for some reason he controls... The party has sloged through all the goblins, the 3 regular orcs and the shaman orc with the druid level, and managed to avoid that pit trap covered by the illusion.

That 4th level cleric is more iconic than anything WOC put in the players handbook. He is D&D.... The 4th level evil cleric is THE MAN. The unsung hero of encounters...

Thats my humble opinion anyway...