The End is the Beginning (Haltern group: Stay out please.) DMing advice needed

Hi folks,

again the odds are against the SADES, it is very likely that the party won't make it through the final fight in Lord of the Iron Fortress. Being out of spells, on 50 % of HP and meeting the BBEG plus guards in a surprise is no good (the last session ended directly before the combat starts, initiative was rolled, good, but not good enough...).

I'll take over in DMing when LotIF has come to an end. The party is on the way to level 18. My campaign is more or less ready to start, but it is tailored for this party (with a lot of background from early adventures, friends involved and so on), bringing the adventurers to quite high epic levels (30 or so).

The party was already completely killed in RttToEE. But the group was prepared for that and informed the mighty persons of Farûn about the fight against evil (and that the party will probably die) and was rescued and raised when the temple was defeated later by Elminster and his friends.
For LotIF, this is not the case. We had no time to inform our friends about what is going on, and it seemed that we could handle the fortress alone.

So I'm searching ideas how to bring the PCs back without using "deus ex machina" persons like Elminster.

Thanks for help,

the Dark Dragon

The characters have no possibility to flee? At all?

AR

No, not if the monsters are played properly by the DM.

Warning, LotIF spoilers below!
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We're facing a pit fiend, two steel predators, a duergar monk, and the big boss (we've only little information about him, he's some sort of a dwarf/half dragon (brown or red)). Oh, and we're playing after 3.5.
The pit fiend has won the initiative and AFAIK, he could cast Blasphemy, dazing the group. Predators, monk and BBEG attack, pit fiend casts Blasphemy again...

Do you think your players will be disappointed by losing their characters in this adventure? Do you think they expect to play their PCs for a long time? Do you think a TPK would spoil their pleasure to play?

If you think so, take a deep breath and twist the encounter to raise their chances to survive. Lower the encounter level by changing a couple of monsters (maybe the side ones), play on purpose a couple of mistakes by the BBEG, put the characters in a favorable position on the map (if it's not too late).

This is just a modest proposal from a not very experienced DM, but although as a player I love tough and challenging adventures (and I don't mind if my PC dies since I always have many ideas for the next ones ), as a DM I had players who used to be really disappointed when they faced dire consequences not because of bad playing or bad luck but instead because the encounter was over their possibilities.

One trick I have used more than once before is to partially deplete the foes' resources: after all, why shouldn't be possible that the villain has already cast some spells in some daily activity, or has already faced other opponents today?

In any case, I wouldn't use the deus ex-machina more than once or twice in a while campaign: it gives the players the feeling that you are always going to save them, so it's best to avoid doing it again (although the way you handled it the first time seems very smart, that they planned it beforehand by roleplaying friendship with stronger NPCs).

O.k., here's an idea:
They're 18th level, right? Any cleric among them? How about a good old prayer to his deity?

If you can get the cleric player to pray and offer some serious sacrifices (a trusted magical item or two, perhaps ability damage or more), you might get one interference, depending on the cleric's wishes.
Perhaps a teleport out of danger, some bonuses to attack or immunity to spells, healing for the group, or even - if the sacrifices allow it - an effect similar to the AU spell bring down the moon: Full healing and full spell slots.

Otherwise, have a trusted friend of the PCs - who ist perhaps not too powerful, but would be believable to have followed the group - arrive in the first round to help them ("Finally I found you!"), and have him carry a mass teleport scroll or a wall of force or something, just to get the PCs out of dodge.

Berandor

I think there are two problems:
1. he (Dark Dragon) is not DM at this very moment (they switch after each campaign).
2. they already lost the ini to a balor and are all standing close together. (certain death)

All the balor needs is a blind kobold with a knife to kill all the PC without any danger.
Balor: each round blasphemy
PC: no action at all
Kobold: walks to the PC and stabs them slowly to death. (It could take an hour but who cares)
Now there are actually many other critters .....

BYE

Yep, this final battle is not under my control. I'll be the DM when LotIF has ended.

The group consists of five characters:

half-elf fighter 4 / cleric 11 / divine disciple 2 of Kelemvor
human paladin 15 / cleric 2 of Helm
elf wizard 15 / mage of the arcane order 2
irda (high ogre from Krynn) wizard 13 / archmage 3
centaur druid 16 / divine disciple 1 of Mielikki

Most of the players will be quite disappointed if they lose their characters in an encounter they can't handle (either by winning it or fleeing). All players are AD&D veterans and have developed good ideas to handle an encounter easily based on the informations gathered during the campaign.

Nearly all close friends of the party were killed during RttToEE. The party went on the LotIF campaign to get the money to get their fallen friends raised. The few but very powerful living friends (a group of clerics and druids) don't know about the party's problems (see initial post).

It is very likely that the villain has used some ressources to achief his goal, but as isoChron pointed out, he doesn't need much to kill the group. Remember, the group is down to 50 % on hp and spells when meeting the boss.

If the DM plays the monsters like they're written in the MM (what he should do, otherwise everything gets some "cheesy" taste), it's a TPK.
The DM may change the odds by using the power of the deities like Berandor has proposed. But I don't think he would, he's not the DM for "flashy" encounters, AFAIK.

I don't want to change the fight when I'm DMing to prevent a TPK, like a "it-was-only-a-dream-story". Playing my campaign with newly generated powerful heroes would remove a lot of background and some hooks for side quests. Plus the time needed to rewrite some parts.

...but how did they get to this point? Did they play very badly the recent events? Have they been extremely unlucky with the rolls? Or is it just the adventure suppose to evolve so that the party arrives here at this time? I wouldn't be surprised if the adventure was poorly designed and be too difficult for the level it is proposed for.

Ok, no, I haven't read LotIF, but just off the top of my head...

I see three possibilities: (a) PCs pull of a miracle & win; (b) PCs lose but some escape; (c) PCs all go down fighting (or stunned senseless as the case may be).

If (a), obviously no problem.

If (b), the survivors have friends right? Friends they can call upon for aid to restore their fallen friends? In return for suitable favors of course.

If (c), who says the BBEG wants (all) the PCs dead? How about (at least some) stabilized, stripped & waking up dangling from chains in a torture cell somewhere? What would the PCs do if someone wakes up to find the BBEG offering them a chance to escape? Does he have any enemies the PCs can take out without incriminating him? If they refuse, he can always kill them one by one at his leisure.

Li Shenron said:

...but how did they get to this point? Did they play very badly the recent events? Have they been extremely unlucky with the rolls? Or is it just the adventure suppose to evolve so that the party arrives here at this time? I wouldn't be surprised if the adventure was poorly designed and be too difficult for the level it is proposed for.

Click to expand...

We had a tough fight before the boss showed up. The DM has made clear that time is a critical factor for the whole campaign. So the party always fought until nearly all ressources were used up. To prevent further loss of power to the boss' guards, we decided to use a "shortcut". The fortress is made of iron walls. The druid offered a Rusting grasp to cut a hole into a wall instead of walking the way our foe has made for us (with golems, devils, steel cats...). The party accepted the druid's idea and so we went through a wall at a randomly chosen point. We were quite sure that there should be another room behind it. Unfortunately, it was the room of the boss and his pit fiend...We were surprised, they were surprised. Initiative was rolled...

Hm, after all, it seems that the adventure designer forgot some "critical" spells that could thwart the story. Rusting Grasp, Transmute Metal to Wood and Ethereal Jaunt are three of them...