Pitched battle of armies

Hoju

First Post
I need ideas on how a large pitched battle on a plains would end up. Some additional info.

1) Both generals are rookies (fgt3), this is the first war in the history of the world
2) The armies are about equal size (12,000), though one has 3 giants working for them
3) Very little magic (arcane or divine)
4) I am still waffling on the outcome, I could go a couple different directions still.
5) The armies are basically volunteers and are fighting for their beliefs and have about 3 months training.
6) There are no "adventurers" to speak of to help with skills or training.

What I need to know is:
1) Would it be one giant battle or skirmishes.
2) Death rate before someone withdraws
3) Would it last hours or days?

Thanks to all.
 

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II need a better description of the armies,
perhaps Icould help then.

TOE

Equipment,
Arms& Armor
Inf
Cav
Discipline
Moral
Organisation
Unit strength
Training
Logistics & support
Medical supply
Train
scouting
Secret Informations
Quality of CO and NCOs

Whgat are missions of the armies
etc

and even then I could give you only my estimation or opinion of the usually outcome, count battles and wars one after the dust sinks and the losses count.
Green levies had hold their own against battle hardened elite troops.
Mistakes in the chain of command had thrown elite forces in the meatgrinder.
Late coming reinforcements had won lost battles.

And how would you define winning?
An defending army who didn`t lose, had accomplished their mission, not loosing could be have the same worth as winning.
Winnning with too much losses to use the victory is almost wothless.
 
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Considering the facts you have provided, I guess the two armies would more or less rush upon each other and fight until one side loses morale and runs away. With no former battles to study, tactics and strategies would be more or less non existant.
 

sword-dancer said:
II need a better description of the armies,
perhaps Icould help then.

and even then I could give you only my estimation or opinion of the usually outcome, count battles and wars one after the dust sinks and the losses count.
Green levies had hold their own against battle hardened elite troops.
Mistakes in the chain of command had thrown elite forces in the meatgrinder.
Late coming reinforcements had won lost battles.

And how would you define winning?
An defending army who didn`t lose, had accomplished their mission, not loosing could be have the same worth as winning.
Winnning with too much losses to use the victory is almost wothless.

Making me think about stuff I haven't thought about.

Very green soldiers and NCO's on both sides, the concept of a military is a very new idea (in the last year).

No cavalry to speak of/nor any siege weapons.

Discipline would be there but not that of a career soldier.

Moral, well each side believes what they are fighting for and religion is heavily involved.

Organization: haven't really thought about it, at what point in our history did the size of a squad grow be set? I'm not too sure that the idea of units/sub-units would have really occurred yet.

Weapons:I'm not even sure what type of weapons they would have. they would be of a decent quality but again with a new army would they have tactics to set up a front line with pikemen and such? I would think no, so weapons would probably be archers/short swords with leather types of armour.

Medical would be about even as would supply lines.

The only unknown are the giants for the one side, even the army that has them on their side aren't sure of their capabilities so they wouldn't exactly be used effectively
 

Hoju said:


Making me think about stuff I haven't thought about.

Very green soldiers and NCO's on both sides, the concept of a military is a very new idea (in the last year).

No cavalry to speak of/nor any siege weapons.

Discipline would be there but not that of a career soldier.


Organization: haven't really thought about it, at what point in our history did the size of a squad grow be set? I'm not too sure that the idea of units/sub-units would have really occurred yet.

Weapons:I'm not even sure what type of weapons they would have. they would be of a decent quality but again with a new army would they have tactics to set up a front line with pikemen and such? I would think no, so weapons would probably be archers/short swords with leather types of armour.

Medical would be about even as would supply lines.

The only unknown are the giants for the one side, even the army that has them on their side aren't sure of their capabilities so they wouldn't exactly be used effectively

Organization: haven't really thought about it, at what point in our history did the size of a squad grow be set? I'm not too sure that the idea of units/sub-units would have really occurred yet.

The classical greeks had a kind of squad organisation type, and i`m bet the Sumerers had it.
in the Germanic tribes relatives would fougt together in the same unit, you could estimate how hard this units stay together.

Discipline would be there but not that of a career soldier.
Moral, well each side believes what they are fighting for and religion is heavily involved.
How much did they trust their leaders,
what are their Leaders,
Gloryhounds
would they follow orders
Blindly
adapting to circumstances
religious fervor(blind fanatism) isn`t usually an advantage, the reason why the knight orders werre so feared was their discipline,
not their skill with weapons,

Weapons:I'm not even sure what type of weapons they would have. they would be of a decent quality but again with a new army would they have tactics to set up a front line with pikemen and such? I would think no, so weapons would probably be archers/short swords with leather types of armour.

If war is a novum Pikes, Polearms, swords Maces etc would maybe non existent.
Spear, bow, axes, hammers maybe shorstword(hunting sword) would be the norm.
Armor: i´m not sure armor would be exist much.

If the bow is the norm, I would say especially with such green armies, the side who use a defensive tactic wins.
Hail of arrows against light armored charging troops, many will be killed and the rest maybe break.
 

If the forces are equally matched, just throw a die and see who wins...

I would suggest a d20 and the closer the result is to 10-11 the closer the result is...
 

Well, from what you have here, I'd guess it'll go more or less like this...

There'll probably be skirmishes as the two forces mvoe to within a few miles of each other. They'll probably both be sending out scouts and foraging parties, though this will be highly disorganised and inefficient. When these skirmishes occur the survivors will run back to the main bulk of their forces and report to their superiors - I'm guessing it's a feudal society? - if so, they'll report to their lords, who'll report to the overall commander.

Note that if one army has already thought about this, they might send out 'death squads' - bands of troops deliberately looking for enemy scouts and killing them when they find them, so that their opponents don't realise the main army is upon them until the last moment. This was a tacticn used by King Harold Godwinsson of the Saxons to defeat a danish army, but note that from what you've described the two forces arrayed in your scenario are unlikely to be anywhere near as well-trained and disciplined as Harolds troops, even his rank and file fyrd.

So, once they're aware of each other being nearby I'm guessing they'll pull in the scouts and parties (too vulnerable) and appraoch each other - if there's a sound understanding of tactics (which there wont be in your scenario due to the novelty of proper war) the sides might be looking for a good battlefield. In this case, they'll probably just fight wherever they meet - and that is important in deciding who will win. If by chance one side gets a better tactical position they're more likely to win - and then, next time, they'll have learned that that terrain is advantageous, and already you'll have basica tactics developing.

At the battle, both lines will most likely line up into basic battle-lines - probably just long, strung out mobs of well-meaning troops who really don't know how they should be forming up. Bands of skirmishers will probably dart forwards to pelt the enemy with arrows, then retreat to the relative safety of the main battle-line, but you wont get the kind of ordered missile barrage like at Agincourt - not only is the weapon technology inferior, but those religiously-driven troops probably just want to get into the thick of the fighting and smite their enemies :)

Then you get mass melee :) This is a big battle too - Hasting was only about 9,000 a side at most, if that.

The giants... well, they will probably prove a massive asset. Against such fresh troops and generals with such little experience they'll be facing foes who really wont be very skilled at ndealing with them. If the army with the giants has any sense they'll set them up to spearhead their attack, but they probably wont think to keep them well protected enough so I'm guessing the giants will cause massive damage before being taken down. Thenm, the next time a battle occurs, one side will already have begun thinking up tactics of how to deal with these juggernauts of destruction while the other will be thinking of new ways to keep them alive and safe from arrows/magic/etc.

Hope that's of some aid!
 

What I need to know is:

1) Would it be one giant battle or skirmishes.
As this is the first war and the leader relatively low level I'd say that the battle is infact a series of skirmishes with each small band working idependently of others, very little coordination but all driven by their individual zeal.

Make lots of Will checks for Morale. In this case I'd also say that the Side with the giants has the advantage. HOWEVER if the opposing side can take out one of the giants then this will be a huge morale boost for them and a morale dampening for their enemy. (who must all make a morale check with a -something penalty.


2) Death rate before someone withdraws

Very low. In many small scale societies battles were sometimes determined by combat of champions - ie two chosen champions would fight and the winner of that contest would win the whole battle.
In fact sometimes (in my culture) whole battles could be won simply by the best war dance (maxed out Perform skill no doubt:)) with no deaths at all
- see also the beginning of the Shaka Zulu movie for an idea of how small scale skirmishes were sometimes dealt with (in this both sides throw light spears which rarely kill but can draw blood - first blood wins)

Other options include killing the leader (at which the troops break and run (in your scenario killing the giants should do the same thing) - see David and Goliath on this point


3) Would it last hours or days?

Usually Hours, sometimes days NEVER more than two Weeks at a time.
Again small scale socieities rely on warriors who are also farmers and need to be out tending crops or hunting/fishing. Again in my culture war was possible for only two months each year (in summer between planting and harvest time)

If the society has professional soldiers then it can be out for much longer (but then they would have the advantage in your case anyway)


My Rationales
Okay from my own culture which was tribal

- each 'clan' has an idependent leader and fights as a 'squad'. The overall 'general' must lead by exaple and force of personality (and is often ignored)

Clans fight for 'personal' (clan) glory in the first instance, and maybe from some higher zealotry. Overall morale however is low and individual clans will pull out and go home at a whim.
(My wifes great-great grandfather was involved in battle against British troops back in the late 1800s. It is reported that he saw the size of the British army and that his side was losing and so up and went home (after which he converted to Christianity)

I know that a similar situation applied to Japanese armies - they were lead by individual daiyamo with varying levels of loyalty and morale who might abandon the war at whim.

I suspect the same applied to Medieval European armies (who were often bulked out with mecenaries and peasant rabble).
and I know for instance that the Battle of Troy (Greek) was waged between 'Heroes' from either side rather than full scale armies (which eventually led to the whole Horse debarcle:P),

The idea of a general coordinating large scale battles is infact an anomaly - the Romans (probably) achieved it, Genghis Khan was highly organised but few others until modernish (1800s) times.

Genghis Khan divided his squads into groups of 10 who were all responsible for the success of their squad (failure of any member meant execution of the whole squad - a great incentive to cooperation) Squads were then formed into platoons of 10 squads (ie 100 men) which were formed into companies of 10 platoons (ie 1000 men)
 

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