How would you handle the Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability during combat?

This has probably been asked before, so please forgive me.

With the advent of 3.5 and rules regarding concealment, hiding, etc., how would you handle a Shadowdancer attempting to use Hide in Plain Sight during combat?

Some questions off the top of my head, but please feel free to add any comments, examples, questions, etc.

Would Hide in Plain Sight be a standard action, move action, no action?

When used during combat, when do opponents have the opportunity to make spot checks?

Does it work against opponents with Darkvision?

What bonuses, if any, would you get from attacking when hidden in plain sight?

dreaded_beast said:

Would Hide in Plain Sight be a standard action, move action, no action?

When used during combat, when do opponents have the opportunity to make spot checks?

Does it work against opponents with Darkvision?

What bonuses, if any, would you get from attacking when hidden in plain sight?

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Supernatural ability, so standard action that does not provoke AoO unless noted otherwise.

The opponents could make a spot check on their turn.

Darkvision does not reveal invisible or hiding opponents. It allows you to see in normal darkness, period.

The bonuses would be the same as from an invisible attacker.

Treat Hide in Plain Sight as pretty much the same thing as Invisibility as a Su ability at will.

Andargor

andargor said:

Supernatural ability, so standard action that does not provoke AoO unless noted otherwise.

The opponents could make a spot check on their turn.

Darkvision does not reveal invisible or hiding opponents. It allows you to see in normal darkness, period.

The bonuses would be the same as from an invisible attacker.

Treat Hide in Plain Sight as pretty much the same thing as Invisibility as a Su ability at will.

Andargor

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Andargor, you've got it wrong, I'm afraid.

From the HIDE skill:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

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By the description of Hide in pain sight, you follows the rules for Hide except you can do it even while observed.

You cannot hide within 60' of a creature with darkvision unless you are invisible or have cover.(PHB page 165)

Again, from the HIDE skill:

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

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If you are successful, it would be the same as if you were invisible.

So HiPS isn't a Supernatural ability?

RigaMortus said:

So HiPS isn't a Supernatural ability?

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Sure it is. It would be a standard action unless the description says otherwise.

But:

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed...

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Clearly implies, at least, that it is the same action as whatever action Hide is.

This one point could be argued, certainly, but it won't make much difference in comabt. Going by the "ranged attack" entry in hide, if you attack and then hide, it would be a move action then anyway. Assuming you fail the "hide while attacking" roll. It doesn't exactly say that for melee attacks, but it's a reasonable extension of the same logic.

NIcely balances out, don't you think?

Does this example work?

1 Shadowdancer and 1 Fighter. The Shadowdancer is 20ft away from the Fighter.

1. The Shadowdancer wins initiative and Hides in Plain Sight and that's all he does.
2. On the Fighter's turn, he fails his Spot check and does nothing.
3. On the Shadowdancer's turn, he moves 20 ft toward the Fighter and attacks.
4. On the Fighter's turn, he attacks the Shadowdancer.
5. On the Shadowdancer's turn, he Withdraws from the Fighter, moving back 20 ft, while using Hide in Plain Sight.
6. On the Fighter's turn, he fails his Spot check and does nothing.
7. Go back to 3 and repeat.

Comments? Any better examples?

dreaded_beast said:

Does this example work?

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Not quite. Close, though. See below.

1 Shadowdancer and 1 Fighter. The Shadowdancer is 20ft away from the Fighter.

1. The Shadowdancer wins initiative and Hides in Plain Sight and that's all he does.

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Fine, so far. The Shadowdancer does not, of course, know if he is really hidden or not.

2. On the Fighter's turn, he fails his Spot check and does nothing.

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Again, the Shadowdancer does not know for sure if he's been spotted or not. Lack of any action by the fighter is a pretty darn good clue,though. Also, if the fighter has Darkvision, the Spot check is a auto-success.

3. On the Shadowdancer's turn, he moves 20 ft toward the Fighter and attacks.

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The fighter gets another chance to spot him - at +20 on his spot check because the Shadowdancer is attacking. The Shadowdancer gets full benefits as if invisible unless the Fighter readies an action.

4. On the Fighter's turn, he attacks the Shadowdancer.

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Only if the Sadowdancer is spotted.

5. On the Shadowdancer's turn, he Withdraws from the Fighter, moving back 20 ft, while using Hide in Plain Sight.

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Fine. He does not know how well he did, of course.

6. On the Fighter's turn, he fails his Spot check and does nothing.

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Fine again, though the Fighter will probably want to ready an action to strike at the Shadowdancer first - negating all invisibility advantages, I would think.

7. Go back to 3 and repeat.

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Of course, if the Fighter has darkvision the Fighter Spot check is an automatic success.

Comments? Any better examples?

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Artoomis said:

Andargor, you've got it wrong, I'm afraid

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A little too strongly worded, perhaps. I wouldn't say you are the one that is wrong, but rather that my interpretation is different from yours.

Artoomis said:

By the description of Hide in pain sight, you follows the rules for Hide except you can do it even while observed.

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What I read in the description, is that Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability that allows the use of the Hide skill without anything to hide behind. My interpretation is that it's a standard action.

Artoomis said:

You cannot hide within 60' of a creature with darkvision unless you are invisible or have cover.(PHB page 165)

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HiPS obviates the need for cover, so it would work against someone with darkvision, IMO.

Andargor

bah

andargor said:

A little too strongly worded, perhaps. I wouldn't say you are the one that is wrong, but rather that my interpretation is different from yours.



What I read in the description, is that Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability that allows the use of the Hide skill without anything to hide behind. My interpretation is that it's a standard action.

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Some things to consider:

How long does it last once it's activated? How many times can you hide during one activation?

Some supernatural abilities are "always on" and don't take any action to activate (otherwise the monk's "Ki strike" limits them to one magic attack every other round if they use it), what makes you think that this isn't an "always on" supernatural ability?

HiPS obviates the need for cover, so it would work against someone with darkvision, IMO.

Andargor

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Darkvision has nothing to do with cover, it has to do with concealment due to darkness. If someone has darkvision, they are not affected by concealment due to darkness or shadows. For them, shadows don't exist within 60'.

It's a not unreasonable arguement that attempting to hide in shadows simply does not work against someone with darkvision, since there are no shadows as far as they are concerned.