Scent and Darkvision vs Shadowdancer

I'm curious to know of Darkvision or Scent give any benefit with regard to the Shadowdancer's hide ability.

Would darkvision allow the creature to see through the shadows as if they weren't there?

Or, if a Shadowdancer, or for that matter an invisible opponent, is within 5 ft of a creature with scent, would the creature gain any benefit, e.g. not be flat-footed with regard to the attacker or not suffer the sneak attack? If the scent ability allows the creature to exactly pin point the attacker is concealment still valid?

Thanks!

First of all, read up on the scent ability, it tells how a creature can track/locate creatures with it. Even when a character pinpoints an invisible person with the listen skill, they are still invisible. Same goes for creatures with scent.

Next, darkvision only works in areas of complete darkness, this darkness doesn't "exist" to those viewing a pitch black area with darkvision. I would say a shadowdancer could not hide against darkvision using "shadows". It could only do that when there are variable light sources that cause objects to cast shadows in the area, which makes darkvision useless cuz light prevents the eyes from "adjusting" I would think.

Calrin Alshaw

Yeah, ignore the word "pinpoint" in the scent ability. All it does is tell you which square the guy is in if he's within 5' of you.

As for darkvision, it specifically says in the SRD under darkvision: "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." However, the shadowdancer isn't hiding in the shadows, she just needs to be near some shadows. The ability hide in plain sight specifically says "shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind." So darkvision would be of no help.

Scent would certainly allow you to tell whch square she's in if you're next to her, but she'd still have total concealment against you.

-The Souljourner

The Souljourner said:

As for darkvision, it specifically says in the SRD under darkvision: "The presence of light does not spoil darkvision." However, the shadowdancer isn't hiding in the shadows, she just needs to be near some shadows. The ability hide in plain sight specifically says "shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind." So darkvision would be of no help.

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With Darkvision, however, there are no shadows to begin with. The Shadowdancer isn't near a shadow because they don't exists to the person with Darkvision. I guess you can still hide in them but you would only be hidden to all the people not using Darkvision.


Aaron

The Souljourner said:

However, the shadowdancer isn't hiding in the shadows, she just needs to be near some shadows. The ability hide in plain sight specifically says "shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind." So darkvision would be of no help.
-The Souljourner

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But HiPS does say... "She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow." So, could you assume that you are hiding in other shadows within 10'?

HiPS is the Supernatural Ability to use the shadows near by to provide you with concealment in order to use the hide skill. The shadows wrap around you, as long as they start withing 10', providing you with a shadow screen (concealment) between you and others.

Mike

Aaron2 said:

With Darkvision, however, there are no shadows to begin with. The Shadowdancer isn't near a shadow because they don't exists to the person with Darkvision. I guess you can still hide in them but you would only be hidden to all the people not using Darkvision.


Aaron

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I would rule that the HiPs ability (Su) is using "magical Shadow" (darkness), and therefore wouldn't be penetrated by Darkvision, just as with the Darkness spell.


Mike

Dear gods, not again!

If you want to see the thread from the last time darkvision vs. hide in plain sight came up try following this link:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?t=77761

Nothing in the ability description says anything about a shadowdancer hiding in shadows, doesn't talk about the shadows enveloping them, all it says is that a shadowdancer within 10' of a shadow that isn't cast by them can hide without concealment. That is it. It certainly doesn't talk about anybodies ability to percieve the shadows making any difference. Why do people keep looking for a rational for how it works? For those who think the shadows envelope the person, explain to me how a shadows obscuring an area in the middle of a well light room with a table within 10' of the shadowdancer (the shadows are under the table) is anything like inconspicuous?

My previous experience with a GM is that it basically works like invisibiliy, is powered by a connection to the plane of shadows through the conduit of a nearby shadow and activated and maintained by hide checks. Why is this such a problem for people?

Sorry for the rant, but this one gets under my skin. It isn't like it is all that powerful, particularly when you look at what a shadowdancer gives up compared to a straight thief.

Gnimish88 said:

Nothing in the ability description says anything about a shadowdancer hiding in shadows, doesn't talk about the shadows enveloping them, all it says is that a shadowdancer within 10' of a shadow that isn't cast by them can hide without concealment. That is it. It certainly doesn't talk about anybodies ability to percieve the shadows making any difference. Why do people keep looking for a rational for how it works? For those who think the shadows envelope the person, explain to me how a shadows obscuring an area in the middle of a well light room with a table within 10' of the shadowdancer (the shadows are under the table) is anything like inconspicuous?

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The ability description says almost nothing at all actually... certainly nothing about the mechanics of how this supernatural ability actually works. And I agree that if the SD was in the middle of a well lit room, but within 10' of some shadows... and the shadows came up and "took" him, it would freak everyone out... hey it's magic.

Gnimish88 said:

My previous experience with a GM is that it basically works like invisibiliy, is powered by a connection to the plane of shadows through the conduit of a nearby shadow and activated and maintained by hide checks. Why is this such a problem for people?

Sorry for the rant, but this one gets under my skin. It isn't like it is all that powerful, particularly when you look at what a shadowdancer gives up compared to a straight thief.

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Invisibility gives you a +40 to your hide skill (+20 if moving)... did your GM also give you this with HiPS?

Mike

Scenting

Thanks for all the replies so far. It's been an interesting read.

Just one more remark:

[Scent would certainly allow you to tell whch square she's in if you're next to her, but she'd still have total concealment against you.

-The Souljourner]

But a character without scent can tell which square the opponent is in. How else do you fight invisible opponents? Surely the fact that you can tell exactly where the opponent is should count for something? Even though scent would tell you when an invisible opponent came within 5 ft of you, you don't get any benefit by knowing that? It makes sense pointless apart from tracking. I'd expect at least negating some of the benedit an invisible attacker has, such as the +2 to hit. Negating the 'flat-footed' criteria might be a bit much.

Errr?

If you don't have scent (or blindsense, or tremorsense, or...etc.), you don't know what square the invisible opponent is in. That's the point.

Scent is a very useful ability. Automatic enemy detection within 30 feet (no save or check), and the ability to pinpoint an enemy's location if within 5 feet.

Good stuff!