Ditch Hit Dice!

I posted this in another thread:

The problem I have with HD as a monster stat is this: it completely outpaces the PCs' level, so that at high levels, PCs are outclassed when it comes to BAB, saving throws, skills, etc., thus requiring crazy spells, feat combos, magic items, specialized class/PrC combos, etc. to allow PCs to compete.

One of the really great things about 3E is the way that they statted monsters to be virtually identical to PCs. This allows the combat, skills, etc. rules that PCs use to be applied to monsters, making for a very streamlined system.

The one stat that goes against the grain is Hit Dice. In all editions, D&D has treated Hit Dice as a monster's 'level', meaning it works just like a PC level when calculating BAB, saving throws, etc. The problem though, is that D&D also uses Hit Dice to factor in a creature's size (i.e. a bigger monster needs more hit points, so it is assigned more Hit Dice, which artificially increase its BAB, skill points, etc.). The D&D rules use one value, Hit Dice, to represent two separate statistics, level of prowess and size.

Consider this: a normal-sized sheep suddenly zoomed up to Colossal size. Why would this larger sheep suddenly develop better combat skills then a top-level Fighter? Why are his Will saves suddenly able to easily resist the most potent mind-affecting magic? Why can this sheep suddenly gain the capacity to Tumble with the most acrobatic Rogues? The big sheep is stronger and has more hit points than the normal-sized sheep, but the differences don't go much beyond that (besides the standard size-related stuff like grapple bonuses).

By splitting size-based characteristics (e.g. bonus hit points for being larger or reduced hit points for being smaller) from measure of prowess (i.e. level), you end up with a much more balanced system.

How it works:

All monsters have a 'level' in a 'class'. The class is the monster type (undead, vermin, giant, animal, fey, etc.). For example, a typical stone giant could be a level 8 Giant (size Large); a teen or elderly stone giant could be a level 5 or 6 Giant; a child could be a level 2 Giant. Its BAB, saves, etc. would be based on its level, but it would get bonus hit points for being Large (in addition to other size-based benefits/penalties).

One of the many advantages of this system is that adding class levels to a monster no longer make it outrageously powerful.

Now I understand that this is a drastic change: current CRs, magic item values, and the power level of spells go completely out the window, so I'm not suggesting that this is something you can casually toss into your typical d20 game. I'm just throwing this out there as food for thought.

Opinions?

If you can get a hold of it, take a look at the D20 Star Wars Alien Anthology (it was published under the unrevised rules). It uses a similar system for statting up alien creatures. There are 'classes': predator, herd animal, scavenger and parasite. They have BAB and Save progressions, skill points and 'class' skills.

It'd be a good place to start, and easily adapted to D&D.

Pbartender said:

If you can get a hold of it, take a look at the D20 Star Wars Alien Anthology (it was published under the unrevised rules). It uses a similar system for statting up alien creatures. There are 'classes': predator, herd animal, scavenger and parasite. They have BAB and Save progressions, skill points and 'class' skills.

Click to expand...

Interesting.. I first batted around this concept in 1E. It's nice to see that someone else has had the same thoughts on the subject. Thanks for mentioning that Anthology.

Let's hear some more comments............

I like where this is going, but not the fact that size alone dictate the HPs. Maybe hit die of 1/2/3 for each catogory. One is low, two is average and three is strong. Also don't forget that HP are abstract.

This is easier to work if you have a Wound Points system.

Each size has a base challenge rating. With that size, you get a base number of Wound Points, a base Fortitude save, a base Strength, and a few other default stats.

Fine - 1 WP.
Diminutive - 1 WP.
Tiny - 2 WP.
Small - 4 WP.
Medium - 8 WP.
Large - 16 WP.
Huge - 32 WP.
Gargantuan - 64 WP.
Colossal - 128 WP.

Then creatures take levels of either warrior or mage, which can provide special abilities. Hmm. Thinking thinking.

to reiterate, this would require a complete restructuring of every monster... so I don't think anyone is really suggesting this will happen. regardless, it is fun.


Making each monstrous type a class seems the best starting point. The classes would be front loaded in that the bulk of the abilities attributed to that type would be given at 1st level (lowlight, immunity to sleep, scent, whatever).

Of course each type would have its own base stat block, with dragons/outsiders having better stat blocks than fey/vermin because they are better in raw power. However, the specials could then be powers to choose from and different classes would provide a different rate of specials. Fey would probably end up with a lot of specials while monstrous humanoid would have very few. This would help to equalize the classes.

Size, then, should just apply straight modifiers. It already increases str/con and decreases dex, but you could make it do more. For instance, if becoming Large granted a +4 to all attacks and damage and granted DR 4 (no reason to the numbers) it would replicate to a large degree the increase it BAB/HP that bumpind Hit Die does.

The idea of monster levels is a compelling one- I might have to work on that myself. Anyway, I had a similar idea for modifiying hit points based on size, and lowering MDT for my low-magic game. So far these mods have worked very well, and the players seem very satisfied with the more lethal results from the MDT, but offers better survivability to beginning characters. Here is what I use.

Hit Points and Massive Damage Threshold (MDT)

Combat in a low magic/gritty game is a dangerous affair, and even seasoned warriors can be dragged down under numbers of inexperienced attackers. In order to present a threat to higher level characters, as well as enhance beginning character survivability, all characters in the game gain a number of hit points at creation based upon their Constitution score. In addition, to simulate the fact that death can come from a lucky blow from even the most unlikely source, a lowered Massive Damage Threshold variant is presented.
All characters now begin with a number of hit points equal to their Constitution score, multiplied by their Size Multiplier, plus any hit dice. For creatures without a Con score, assume their Con is 20 for the purposes of adding extra hit points.
For example: A 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con would have (16 Con + 3 Con bonus) 19 + 1d10 hit points. An ogre (size large) with a 15 Con would have (15 Con x 2 size + 8 Con bonus) 38 + 4d8 hit points. A human zombie, which doesn’t have a Con score, would have (virtual 20 Con + 0 Con bonus + 3 Toughness) 23 + 2d12 hit points.
In addition, all creatures except for constructs, oozes, plants, and undead have a Massive Damage Threshold (MDT). MDT is based on the character’s Con score, and modified by size and the Fortitude Base Save. Anytime a single blow, spell, or attack overcomes a creature’s MDT, it must make a DC 15 Fort save or fall to 0 hit points and begin losing 1 hit point per round until dead, stabilized, or healed. For every 5 hit points of damage a creature’s MDT is exceeded by in a single attack, the Fort save DC is increased by +1. Any creature that is immune to critical hits also is immune to MDT saves.
For example- A 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con would have a MDT of 18 (16 Con + 2 Fort). An ogre (size large) with a 15 Con would have a MDT of 23 (15 Con + 4 size + 3 Fort). An imp (size tiny) with a Con of 10 would have a MDT of 9 (10 Con + 3 Fort - 4 size). An ancient red dragon with a Con of 29 would have a MDT of 64 (29 Con + 19 Fort + 16 size).

Size Size Mult. MDT
Fine X.1 -8
Diminutive X.1 -6
Tiny X.25 -4
Small X.5 -2
Medium X1 +0
Large X2 +4
Huge X4 +8
Gargantuan X8 +16
Colossal X16 +32

Thanks to everyone for all the replies!

Ferret said:

I like where this is going, but not the fact that size alone dictate the HPs. Maybe hit die of 1/2/3 for each catogory. One is low, two is average and three is strong. Also don't forget that HP are abstract.

Click to expand...

I see what you're saying. If I were to tell you that I prefer Wounds/Vitality to hit points, would this monster class system seem more reasonable? See my response to RangerWickett's post below.

RangerWickett said:

This is easier to work if you have a Wound Points system.

Each size has a base challenge rating. With that size, you get a base number of Wound Points, a base Fortitude save, a base Strength, and a few other default stats.

Fine - 1 WP.
Diminutive - 1 WP.
Tiny - 2 WP.
Small - 4 WP.
Medium - 8 WP.
Large - 16 WP.
Huge - 32 WP.
Gargantuan - 64 WP.
Colossal - 128 WP.

Then creatures take levels of either warrior or mage, which can provide special abilities. Hmm. Thinking thinking.

Click to expand...

Cool.. I was thinking WP too, but didn't want to crowd my first post with too many details. Your flat WP by size category is interesting. Let me give you my initial (very rough) thoughts on WP for comparison:

Base WP (BWP) = Con + 1/2 Str

Fine - BWP * 1/8.
Diminutive - BWP * 1/4.
Tiny - BWP * 1/2.
Small - BWP * 3/4.
Medium - BWP.
Large - BWP * 1.25.
Huge - BWP * 2.
Gargantuan - BWP * 4.
Colossal - BWP * 8.

Now I see that your WP chart seems to scale more quickly at the high end, but because larger monsters have higher Str scores, my chart actually scales more quickly than it first appears.

Another difference I see between our two charts is that Medium and smaller creatures have more WP. Do you see any problems with that?

AeroDm said:

to reiterate, this would require a complete restructuring of every monster... so I don't think anyone is really suggesting this will happen. regardless, it is fun.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it would be a lot of work.. I think this would be nice to see in 4.0. Seriously! I personally think that the way Hit Dice works now is one of the main reasons many folks complain that high-level D&D seems so broken, meaning that combat is geared around hitting a foe with a 'save or die' or setting up some ultimate defense tweaked to take advantage of that particular monster's weakness. It would be nice if the combat rules allowed high-level combat without making it a suicide mission.

AeroDm said:

Making each monstrous type a class seems the best starting point. The classes would be front loaded in that the bulk of the abilities attributed to that type would be given at 1st level (lowlight, immunity to sleep, scent, whatever).

Of course each type would have its own base stat block, with dragons/outsiders having better stat blocks than fey/vermin because they are better in raw power. However, the specials could then be powers to choose from and different classes would provide a different rate of specials. Fey would probably end up with a lot of specials while monstrous humanoid would have very few.

Click to expand...

I agree.

AeroDm said:

This would help to equalize the classes.

Click to expand...

Not necessary.. here's why. Are you familiar with the 1E DMG? There were charts in the back which broke down every special ability a monster could have and assigned an XP value to them. Grim Tales (BadAxe games) has a similar, and much more comprehensive system: all special abilties, size categories, movement rates, etc. have a CR adjustment assigned to them. To calculate a PC's or monster's CR, add up the individual CRs for all the properties of the creature. Grim Tales also advocates getting rid of LA and ECL - a very cool idea. This Grim Tales system doesn't require you to balance classes: the amount of XP you receive from an encounter is dependent on your CR. If your entire party is level 4 but one person contracts lycanthropy which adds, say, 2.1 to his CR, he will receive commensurately fewer XP from any encounter in which the group participates. This nicely reflects the fact that the encounter wasn't as challenging for the were-PC as it was for everybody else.

AeroDm said:

Size, then, should just apply straight modifiers. It already increases str/con and decreases dex, but you could make it do more. For instance, if becoming Large granted a +4 to all attacks and damage and granted DR 4 (no reason to the numbers) it would replicate to a large degree the increase it BAB/HP that bumpind Hit Die does.

Click to expand...

This is a neat idea - I'm going to give this some thought.

One thing though.. I don't like Con increase/Dex decrease with size. I think that Str is the only stat that is size-dependent. Admittedly, it is harder for a larger creature to perform certain feats of dexterity than it is for a smaller one (e.g. threading a needle, assuming the needle is sized for humans). This is more a function of the tools being too small for the large creature, rather than a function of the creature's clumsiness. I can see circumstance-based skill penalties for certain Dex-oriented tasks instead. Also, for combat situations, this is be reflected in size categories providing attack/AC bonuses/penalties.

Gothmog said:

The idea of monster levels is a compelling one- I might have to work on that myself.

Click to expand...

I'm glad you like it!

Gothmog said:

Anyway, I had a similar idea for modifiying hit points based on size, and lowering MDT for my low-magic game. So far these mods have worked very well, and the players seem very satisfied with the more lethal results from the MDT, but offers better survivability to beginning characters. Here is what I use.

Hit Points and Massive Damage Threshold (MDT)

Combat in a low magic/gritty game is a dangerous affair, and even seasoned warriors can be dragged down under numbers of inexperienced attackers. In order to present a threat to higher level characters, as well as enhance beginning character survivability, all characters in the game gain a number of hit points at creation based upon their Constitution score. In addition, to simulate the fact that death can come from a lucky blow from even the most unlikely source, a lowered Massive Damage Threshold variant is presented.
All characters now begin with a number of hit points equal to their Constitution score, multiplied by their Size Multiplier, plus any hit dice. For creatures without a Con score, assume their Con is 20 for the purposes of adding extra hit points.
For example: A 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con would have (16 Con + 3 Con bonus) 19 + 1d10 hit points. An ogre (size large) with a 15 Con would have (15 Con x 2 size + 8 Con bonus) 38 + 4d8 hit points. A human zombie, which doesn’t have a Con score, would have (virtual 20 Con + 0 Con bonus + 3 Toughness) 23 + 2d12 hit points.
In addition, all creatures except for constructs, oozes, plants, and undead have a Massive Damage Threshold (MDT). MDT is based on the character’s Con score, and modified by size and the Fortitude Base Save. Anytime a single blow, spell, or attack overcomes a creature’s MDT, it must make a DC 15 Fort save or fall to 0 hit points and begin losing 1 hit point per round until dead, stabilized, or healed. For every 5 hit points of damage a creature’s MDT is exceeded by in a single attack, the Fort save DC is increased by +1. Any creature that is immune to critical hits also is immune to MDT saves.
For example- A 1st level human fighter with a 16 Con would have a MDT of 18 (16 Con + 2 Fort). An ogre (size large) with a 15 Con would have a MDT of 23 (15 Con + 4 size + 3 Fort). An imp (size tiny) with a Con of 10 would have a MDT of 9 (10 Con + 3 Fort - 4 size). An ancient red dragon with a Con of 29 would have a MDT of 64 (29 Con + 19 Fort + 16 size).

Size Size Mult. MDT
Fine X.1 -8
Diminutive X.1 -6
Tiny X.25 -4
Small X.5 -2
Medium X1 +0
Large X2 +4
Huge X4 +8
Gargantuan X8 +16
Colossal X16 +32

Click to expand...

Though I'm more of a WP/Vitality fan myself, I think this is a neat hit point variant. This looks like base HP are higher, but don't increase as quickly due to the fact that Con only affects base HP.

Edit: fixed grammar

Ulorian said:

Yeah, it would be a lot of work.. I think this would be nice to see in 4.0. Seriously! I personally think that the way Hit Dice works now is one of the main reasons many folks complain that high-level D&D seems so broken, meaning that combat is geared around hitting a foe with a 'save or die' or setting up some ultimate defense tweaked to take advantage of that particular monster's weakness. It would be nice if the combat rules allowed high-level combat without making it a suicide mission.

Click to expand...

I firmly believe that the folks at WotC sift thru these forums for ideas, especially the house rules forum. I wouldn't be surprised to see a LOT of the ideas posted on enworld appearing in 4.0 whenever it comes out (hopefully not soon tho)

Hagen