Reconstructing Generic Classes & Magic Traditions

Design Philosophy
I wanted to give the classes a solidly different feel from the others while making sure each one was pretty open ended. These are hopefully going to end up being what I use for a PbP game I'm going to run here.

The number of bonus feats are the same for each class as I didn't want to make that the balancing factor, but rather their focus in their respective areas. Combat for the warrior, skills for the expert, and casting for the adept. My current thoughts are that the expert is the weakest of the three, but I'm not entirely certain.

What I want to Know
-Do the generic classes generally seem balanced against one another?
-Do the three magical traditions seem relatively balanced against one another?
-Anything that strikes you?

Generic Classes from UA (modified as follows)

Warrior
HD: 1d12
Skills: 8 class skills
Skill Points: 4 skill points per level (x4 at level 1)
Base Attack Bonus: +1 per level
Magic Rating: +1/2 per level
Saves: One Good, Two Poor
Starting Feats: Simple & Martial Weapons, Light, Medium & Heavy Armor, Shields
Bonus Feats at Levels: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19 and 20 (even numbered feats must be combat related feats, i.e. those off of the fighter list)

Expert
HD: 1d8
Skills: 16 class skills
Skill Points: 8 skill points per level (x4 at level 1)
Base Attack Bonus: +3/4 per level
Magic Rating: +3/4 per level
Saves: Two Good, One Poor
Starting Feats: Simple Weapons, Five Martial Weapons, Light Armor, Shields
Bonus Feats at Levels: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19 and 20

Adept
HD: 1d4
Skills: 8 class skills
Skill Points: 4 skill points per level (x4 at level 1)
Base Attack Bonus: +1/2 per level
Magic Rating: +1 per level
Saves: One Good, Two Poor
Starting Feats: Five Simple Weapons
Bonus Feats at Levels: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, 16, 17, 19 and 20 (even numbered feats must be metamagic or item creation feats)
Spellcasting: Spontaneous Casting (uses sorcerer spells per day & spells known, can learn additional spells, see below for more information on magic)

Skills

Spellcraft: Based off of primary attribute for spellcasters, unavailable to nonspellcasters. Learning a spell requires a check DC 15 + spell level for a spell in your traditions schools, 20 + 2 x spell level for a spell outside of your traditions schools. Other checks involving magic of other traditions schools increases the DC by 10.

Magic
Magic loses the divine/arcane divide, but gains a divide by tradition, which happens to be based on the chosen spellcasting attribute. Different schools of magic are also more common to the various traditions. This doesn't mean that the other traditions do not have access to those schools, but rather that it is just harder and rarer to learn outside of your tradition. Casters cannot choose a spell outside of their tradition with the spells they automatically gain as they level and at first level, but must learn them through other sources (scrolls, etc.). Those that are listed with specific subschools are favored only within those subschools, additionally sorcerous traditions have access to energy type spells which are those with an energy descriptor.

Hermetic - Intelligence based
Favored Schools: Conjuration (Calling, Summoning, Teleportation), Divination (Scrying), Evocation, Illusion (pattern), Universal

Spiritual - Wisdom based
Favored Schools: Abjuration, Conjuration (Creation, Healing), Divination, Necromancy, Universal

Sorcerous - Charisma based
Favored Schools: Enchantment, Transmutation, Illusion, Energy descriptor, Universal

I have done a lot of thinking and tinkering with these classes too. My point of view for right now, is that the expert is underpowered.

But its likely a moot point. I doubt you will se many single classed warriors and experts. Its far more attractive to take levels of both. Most will start as experts, then take a warrior level and then expert for the next three levels. That way they are only lacking 1 BAB, but have gained enormously in saves and skills.

Expert 4/Warrior 1
(Hp 8+6,5+3*4,5=28, BAB +4, Skillpoints 8*7+4*1=60, Saves F+3 R+4 W+4 )

Warrior 5
(Hp 12+4*6,5=38, BAB +5, Skillpoints 4*8=32, Saves F+4 R+1 W+1)

Good point; how about changing the feat progressions to not include a bonus feat at level 1. That makes it less attractive to take that first level of Expert and then go Warrior as you miss out on a bonus feat.

Also, second idea, the starting feats you only gain at character level 1, thus you wouldn't gain medium armor proficiency and all martial weapons by taking Expert 1, then going Warrior for your second level.

I think that easily makes it more prospective to take your first level as a warrior if you want to wear medium or heavy armor and have a broad selection of weapons. That's two armor feats plus a large spread of weapons.

Hrm... let's see if we go with the weapon group rules. The warriors get basic plus four, the experts gets basic plus two, the adept gets basic.

Also, really looking for comments on the magic traditions...

The idea of tagging magic schools to different magic schools it is not bad at all. I'm not sure I agree on all the combinations (see below).

One potential problem is that the system makes it most attractive to be a Hermetic spellcaster. The reason is that they will have high intelligence, that means many skillspoints and a better Spellcraft score (somewhere between 2-5 points better). Thus they will be the best at learning spells from other traditions. That could be a reason to make that Tradition have the least attractive Favored Schools.

It also seems wrong somehow that once a caster has mastered a spell from a non-favored school they can use is just as well as any spell from their favored schools.

How about letting the relevant stat for spellcasting being tied with the favored school. So if casting an Abjuration you have to use Wisdom (for determining if you can cast the the spell, DC and so on.) regardless of tradition. That means that spellcasters will need all three mental abilities to be good (or at least decent). And barring very good ability scores spellcasters will only know relatively low level spells outside of their traditions. That limits spellcasters but has a nice flavor.

My take on the traditions favored schools would be something like this.

Hermetic - Intelligence based
Favored Schools: Conjuration (Calling, Summoning, Teleportation), Divination (Scrying and Detection spells), Illusion, Transmutation, Universal and any spell that involves items (like Shrink item, Simulacrum, Magic weapon and so on)

Spiritual - Wisdom based
Favored Schools: Abjuration, Conjuration (Calling, Creation, Healing), Divination (except scrying), Necromancy, Universal

Sorcerous - Charisma based
Favored Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, All spells with elemental or energy descriptors (acid, air, cold, earth, electricity, fire, sonic and water), any spell enchancing or chaging their body (Eagles splendor, Alter self, Polymorph etc.), Universal

monboesen said:

The idea of tagging magic schools to different magic schools it is not bad at all. I'm not sure I agree on all the combinations (see below).

One potential problem is that the system makes it most attractive to be a Hermetic spellcaster. The reason is that they will have high intelligence, that means many skillspoints and a better Spellcraft score (somewhere between 2-5 points better). Thus they will be the best at learning spells from other traditions. That could be a reason to make that Tradition have the least attractive Favored Schools.

Click to expand...

Actually, I had mentioned that spellcraft was based off of the primary attribute of the spellcaster. Thus it would be different for the separate traditions.

It also seems wrong somehow that once a caster has mastered a spell from a non-favored school they can use is just as well as any spell from their favored schools.

How about letting the relevant stat for spellcasting being tied with the favored school. So if casting an Abjuration you have to use Wisdom (for determining if you can cast the the spell, DC and so on.) regardless of tradition. That means that spellcasters will need all three mental abilities to be good (or at least decent). And barring very good ability scores spellcasters will only know relatively low level spells outside of their traditions. That limits spellcasters but has a nice flavor.

My take on the traditions favored schools would be something like this.

Hermetic - Intelligence based
Favored Schools: Conjuration (Calling, Summoning, Teleportation), Divination (Scrying and Detection spells), Illusion, Transmutation, Universal and any spell that involves items (like Shrink item, Simulacrum, Magic weapon and so on)

Spiritual - Wisdom based
Favored Schools: Abjuration, Conjuration (Calling, Creation, Healing), Divination (except scrying), Necromancy, Universal

Sorcerous - Charisma based
Favored Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, All spells with elemental or energy descriptors (acid, air, cold, earth, electricity, fire, sonic and water), any spell enchancing or chaging their body (Eagles splendor, Alter self, Polymorph etc.), Universal

Click to expand...

You've made Hermetic even more appealing, adding illusion, all of transmutation and others to it, while leaving most of the other two at about the same place.

I had thought about your suggestion for the relevant stat being tied to the tradition the spell you are using comes from, that seems pretty good.

Ferrix said:

Actually, I had mentioned that spellcraft was based off of the primary attribute of the spellcaster. Thus it would be different for the separate traditions.

You've made Hermetic even more appealing, adding illusion, all of transmutation and others to it, while leaving most of the other two at about the same place.

I had thought about your suggestion for the relevant stat being tied to the tradition the spell you are using comes from, that seems pretty good.

Click to expand...

Sorry missed that, but it seems to be a clunky solution. Why should a knowledge type skill suddenly be tied to other ability scores ?

I know the favored schools is going to be a individual taste thing. My reasoning is:

Hermetic mages should deal with magic that is of an experimenting and intelligent sort, and to me those schools and types of spells are those mentioned. Except for some of transmutations I guess. Its spells that are hard to use without prior knowledge and planning and there are few direct damage spells. Theme: Magical items and smoke&mirrors.

Spiritual focused spellcasters, IMO, should use magic that deal with the forces of life and death, protection of people and places and contact with higher (or lower) beings. Theme: Powers of life and death, spiritual guidance.

The Sorcerous caster, again entirely IMO, should have magic that ties in with their strong personalties, Flashy energy spells, Charms and enchancing themselves to stroke their ego. Theme: Raw energy, overpowering personality and personal power.

I'm not thinking that much about balance here, more of style. And in regard to the Hermetics they are somewhat nerfed by having little acces to big damage spells in my suggestion (no evocation).

I see spellcraft a bit more like how they perceive and interpret magic, so then I think it would be based off of the primary casting attribute.

The traditions are mostly flavor + balance on my part, so yeah, that's more of a opinion thing.