"Living Documents" (and more)

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
Move from a previous thread to prevent derailment... (further derailment? ;) )



philreed said:
Is there a reason you didn't do that instead of just releasing a collection? I've packaged and released OGC in the past but I always do work to add to the material -- even the Mecha SRD Extreme includes an appendix of new material (that I also released for free). I'm not sure I understand the fun in scanning text and releasing it without trying to make it include some creative input of my own.

I see OGC as a tool to inspiring my own work. When I find some OGC that I like, I find it's a lot more fun to twist it, add to it, or adapt it to suit my needs.

I derive a great deal of inspiration from it as well. Lest you forget, this is not a simple repackaging. What has thus far been released in the pack are select chunks of OGC from larger works, reformatted into extensively-bookmarked and hyperlinked, easy to navigate, electronic versions of OGC that were previously only available in their pristine form in print format. As time goes by, and the various original sources are out-of-print and no longer available, the sections that I personally feel are the cream of the crop for running a game in a style that I enjoy will be available electronically.

There might be some (poor misguided fools ;) ) who, for whatever reasons, would prefer the original material rather than what I eventually morph it into. How fortunate for them that I believe in archiving the original and making it available as well. You'll also note that I use separate PDFs for separate sources. This helps to preserve a recognizable "chain of OGC custodianship" (so to speak) so that while it is still available in its original format, it can be sought out, and when the original print books have long since turned to dust or been relegated to a number of attics equal to the number of the print run, it will still only be a search engine search away from availability.

I consider PDFs (and even moreso, PDF bundles) to be "Living Documents" that grow and expand over time. By releasing a basic package early, it gives those who understand and embrace that concept the chance to "buy in" early in the process, watch the growth, and in some cases help guide the direction of that growth. Of course, revisions and updates are free to those who have already made the purchase, so those that make that choice early gain that additional benefit. For example, those who bought into the SRD 3.5 Revised when it first came out in July of 2003 got a great deal and have been able to take advantage of its usefulness for a year and a half now...at the original price through about six revisions and updates. Judging by the reviews and response, it was not only a decision that was embraced by many, but critically well received also.

Nevertheless, it's a business model that gives a lot back to the consumer/community. I'm actually surprised that you're having so much trouble following what I'm doing. When I pressed for the ability to sell inexpensive-and-smaller PDFs through RPGNow.com you were one of the few who quickly embraced it and rode that model to great heights, despite my own decision that for me, the model was becoming more trouble than it was worth. It's not always easy to see what might be a worthwhile way of conducting business, but such is the nature of innovation. I'm finding it a bit humorous that my pressing to be able to sell smaller, inexpensive PDFs way back then also sparked a bit of controversy and led to the declaration of a revision of RPGNow.com policy, as well.

Anyway, the more time I spend discussing business, the less I can spend writing/laying out/conducting business, so I hope that was enough of an explanation to help you understand. If not, my apologies.

*EDIT* I also want to add that the "Living Document" concept is also a hedge against piracy. If someone steals a static document and it gets passed around the same file is shared five, ten, or even twenty years from now. With a Living Document, one has to spend a lot more time and effort to be sure they are stealing the most recent and updated version. In the long run, if someone has any concept of time-being-money, it behooves them to simply sign up at the source and always be assured of getting the best version available. Considering the low price point of even the largest PDFs and Bundles, sooner or later even the leetest of pirates matures enough to figure out what is in his best interests. That's what I think, anyway.
 
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So the revisions add original material? I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.

The point I'm trying to make is that while putting together a collection of OGC is work (bookmarks, hyperlinks, OCR -- all a lot of work) I don't see how it's fun.
 

philreed said:
So the revisions add original material? I don't think I'm understanding what you're saying.

The point I'm trying to make is that while putting together a collection of OGC is work (bookmarks, hyperlinks, OCR -- all a lot of work) I don't see how it's fun.

Revisions sometimes add oringinal material and other times add a level of utility. For instance, one could argue that the Creature Stat Blocks revision of the SRD 3.5 Revised didn't add any original material, and yet I find that stat blocks are incredibly useful, especially when they are electronically at your finger tips for every creature in the SRD including one for each dragon at each age level. There's a lot of what we do as publishers that might be described as "less fun" or "busy work" but, to me, that doesn't make it any less satisfying when I see the end result.
 

Mark said:
Revisions sometimes add oringinal material and other times add a level of utility. For instance, one could argue that the Creature Stat Blocks revision of the SRD 3.5 Revised didn't add any original material, and yet I find that stat blocks are incredibly useful, especially when they are electronically at your finger tips for every creature in the SRD including one for each dragon at each age level. There's a lot of what we do as publishers that might be described as "less fun" or "busy work" but, to me, that doesn't make it any less satisfying when I see the end result.

Can you point me toward one of your SRD/OGC collection products that includes original material? It may just be easier for me to look at an actual product to understand what you're getting at.
 

philreed said:
Can you point me toward one of your SRD/OGC collection products that includes original material? It may just be easier for me to look at an actual product to understand what you're getting at.

Ah, I can see why you aren't getting it. Perhaps the word innovation would work better for you than original in the case of the SRD 3.5 Revised? Like the Creature Stat Block PDF that was added to the project at one revision, the Character Class Spell Books was another. This was something that had not been done by anyone in electronic format, thus "originated by me", that many lauded as extremely useful for when they were creating characters (PC and/or NPCs) and wanted only the spells that would be available to their particular class, with hyperlinked spell lists, the spells then in order by level, then again in order (all for that class) alphabetically. Several of the Spell Book PDFs are availabel for FREE at RPGNow.com
 

Hmm... I think that Mark tries to add utility instead of 'original' content. Something can be said for doing that, if people are willing to pay for utility, why shouldn't Mark try to earn money from it? Phil on the other hand earns money thru mostly 'original' content (almost all OGL publishers use content from or derived from the SRD).

I think that Phil sees a danger from Mark due to the possibility (or the fact) that Mark makes a buck from work Phil did (reusing OGC verbatim). Just keep in mind that Mark spend a lot of time laying it out, bookmirking it, and adding links. Mark wants a little compensation for the time he spent. The problem with this is that it might devalue the original work, Mark might ask $5 for $50 worth of OGC products.

Personally i would stay away from products for a period x, depending on how much is OGC, after period x the original product should have paid for itself (if not, maybe the producer should re-evaluate his bussiness). After period x i would not feel bad pillaging all OGC from a product and redistribute it in an OGC compilation. If we aren't carefull people who now designate OGC liberally might stop being liberal with their OGC designation...

Mark's bussiness plan isn't very sound, because others might do it 'better' and for free what he charges for...
 
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Mark said:
Ah, I can see why you aren't getting it. Perhaps the word innovation would work better for you than original in the case of the SRD 3.5 Revised?

Okay, that helps. Thanks. Yeah, by "original" I thought you meant that you had added new material -- for example, a selection of new assassin spells to that particular PDF.
 
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Cergorach said:
Hmm... I think that Mark tries to add utility instead of 'original' content. Something can be said for doing that, if people are willing to pay for utility, why shouldn't Mark try to earn money from it? Phil on the other hand earns money thru mostly 'original' content (almost all OGL publishers use content from or derived from the SRD).

Well, I do both, actually, but in the case of the SRD 3.5 Revised this is the essence of the case.

Cergorach said:
I think that Phil sees a danger from Mark due to the possibility (or the fact) that Mark makes a buck from work Phil did (reusing OGC verbatim).

Naw. I don't see the sense in creating PDFs of unaltered material from material already available in PDFs.

Cergorach said:
Just keep in mind that Mark spend a lot of time laying it out, bookmirking it, and adding links. Mark wants a little compensation for the time he spent. The problem with this is that it might devalue the original work, Mark might ask $5 for $50 worth of OGC products.

Personally i would stay away from products for a period x, depending on how much is OGC, after period x the original product should have paid for itself (if not, maybe the producer should re-evaluate his bussiness). After period x i would not feel bad pillaging all OGC from a product and redistribute it in an OGC compilation. If we aren't carefull people who now designate OGC liberally might stop being liberal with their OGC designation...

Waiting a good period of time (which is, admittedly, arbitrary), not utilizing the full OGC content from a single source (no stripmining), only using material that fits my own interests (which means rules that don't rewrite rules but rather add to or extend rules from the core), etc. are my primary, personally guidelines. There's really nothing to fear but I suppose it is hard for some folks to see that in advance. I remember how some folks screamed bloody murder about the small, inexpensive PDF movement, but the sky didn't fall and the industry wasn't destroyed. Markets are an incredibly flexible and resilient thing.

Cergorach said:
Mark's bussiness plan isn't very sound, because others might do it 'better' and for free what he charges for...

I'm willing to risk my time that others aren't going to achieve the same goals as I, for free or for pay, because I don't think anyone has the same amount of time to put into the types of projects I pursue, nor do I think they generally have the inclination. As Phil remarked early on, he doesn't find it fun and I doubt most people would. As I mentioned at one point, I nevertheless find it satisfying.
 


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