Another Shadowdancer Thread

The other thread (and another player in my group) prompted me to consider how a shadowdancer's Hide In Plain Sight ability would work in tandem with Spring Attack.

Let's say the shadowdancer(/rogue) begins the round hidden 10' away from his target and seeks to move 10', make a sneak attack, move 5 more feet (total=1/2 movement) with Spring Attack, and hide as part of his move action. He stays in the shadows (or within 10 feet of the shadows) the entire time.

Is this possible? First of all, does he stay hidden (and thus deny the target its dex bonus to AC) while moving, as long as he stays in the shadows? Secondly, can he attack and then hide, assuming it would be legal to hide if he hadn't attacked?

I'm inclined to say that the shadowdancer could pull it off, but would take a -20 penalty on the Hide check. The skill description says that hiding while attacking, running, or charging is possible, but very difficult (hence the -20 penalty). It also spells out the specific case of sniping, which seems more or less functionally equivalent.

However, I thought I'd see if anyone agrees or disagrees with me. I might be overlooking something...

I'd allow it. If the Shadowdancer makes his Hide check at a -20 penalty and stays within 10 feet of a shadow (not too difficult, assuming the creature he is attacking casts a shadow too), he can remain hidden (and effectively invisible) while he Spring Attacks, before, during and after he attacks.

I generally would not allow him to stay hidden the whole time; the shadowdancer would be seen during the attack, but could then hide afterwards as part of movement.

The reason is exactly the sniping rule, because it essentially says, that it is not possible to stay hidden while attacking, without spending an extra move action to that purpose and take a -20 penalty.

Otherwise you could normally just use the attack action and Hide as part of it with a -20 penalty and have the move action left over, which would net you an extra move action, basically.

In the other thread I said, that I'd allow the shadowdancer to attack and move+hide even without taking a -20 on the Hide check, but I'm not so sure about this, actually. The point is, that if you see the complete turn as the action, then the shadowdancer is attacking during that turn and therefore should suffer the appropriate penalty. The same reasoning, basically, why a buckler does not grant an AC bonus, if the off-hand is used to attack, if you know what I mean.

So, to sum it up, I'd not allow the shadowdancer to stay hidden while attacking, but I would allow him to "surprise" the opponent, that is no Dex bonus against his attack, since he attacks from hiding. I would allow him to hide afterwards as part of the remaining move, but with the -20 penalty for having attacked during the turn.

Bye
Thanee

I don't like that they are allowing charging... which is movement and an attack. But during the Sniping mechanic, you are specifically not allowed to move at all (except 5ft.)... as remaining hidden the whole time is a move action all on it's own.

I say, let's ban hiding while charging! And during a spring attack for that matter... as hiding is a move equiv. action during the round in which it's combined with an attack, and therefore no movement is allowed.

YMMV


Mike

Well, since the RAW don't explicitly mention otherwise...

I'd say HiPS allows you to Hide under circumstances someone else can't. That's all it does; you still have to follow the normal rules for Hide.

I treat Hide in Plain Sight in a similar manner to invisibility with a few exceptions.

1) It requires a hide roll
2) You can only hide as part of a move action or as a move-equivalent action, essentially boiling down to doing it only once per round if you want to attack
3) It requires a shadow

I'd certainly allow a shadowdancer to use spring attack while hiding. If the shadowdancer is hidden and 20 ft away, I'd allow then to take -20 to the hide check they used to hide while attacking. If the defender spots the shadowdancer, it's no sneak attack, otherwise the shadowdancer can sneak attack and then hide again on the spring part of the attack. This hide also takes a -20 penalty since it's in the same round as an attack. I only allow one hide check per turn, so the previous round's check is still valid this round. A new hide check for each new attempt to hide. It doesn't work actively like spot or listen.

My experience is that shadowdancers are generally not very powerful. Once attack with weak BAB and strong sneak attack generally pales in comparison to a full attack by a fighter. They're good support, but lousy fighters so I cut them some slack. Treating it as quasi-invisibility is by far the easiest way to handle it.

Edit: Oh, and like invisibility, you become visible after an attack. There's no such thing as remaining hidden while attacking. It's certainly not Greater Invisibility

Pinotage

Darkness said:

Well, since the RAW don't explicitly mention otherwise...

I'd say HiPS allows you to Hide under circumstances someone else can't. That's all it does; you still have to follow the normal rules for Hide.

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The problem is, that the part, which is the source for the confusion, is from the RAW.

It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

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No explanation given as to how this might be meant, and it violates what the sniping rule says, if you just take it directly as it is said in the above quote and allow hiding as part of an attack or charge action.

Bye
Thanee

Leaving the shadowdancer aside for the moment...

The way I see it:

Now... You can't take full-round actions that don't include movement when hiding while attacking ('cause hiding is part of your movement, if any). Apart from that, you can do whatever. You must also be unobserved (exception: if you create a diversion).

When sniping, you take a single attack and hide again immediately (this also costs your move action). The implication is that when you're sniping, you're attacking in a way that doesn't draw observation. Otherwise, sniping would be pretty redundant.

So... If you snipe, you can stay hidden. If you attack from hiding in another way, you are seen (assuming someone is in a position to see you).

Darkness said:

When sniping, you take a single attack and hide again immediately (this also costs your move action). The implication is that when you're sniping, you're attacking in a way that doesn't draw observation. Otherwise, sniping would be pretty redundant.

So... If you snipe, you can stay hidden. If you attack from hiding in another way, you are seen (assuming someone is in a position to see you).

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I think that's right. That's why they spell out sniping, as opposed to other kinds of "hiding while attacking". You don't become visible when you snipe, but you would when attacking and then hiding, even if you start from a hidden state. That's why sniping costs you the whole move action.

Isn't sniping specific to ranged attacks?

SRD said:

Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

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Anyways, seems to me like you go out of hiding during the attack and indeed have to hide again.