New Prestige Class -- Sphere Savant -- Updated!

I have the idea for a new 10 level Prestige Class.

I have three names pending....

A) Sphere Mage (boring)
B) Sphere Savant (I think this is my favorite)
C) Scion of the Sphere (Maybe to fancy)

You can vote on them if/when you comment.

I don't have a flavor text right now, just the basics.

The Sphere Savant (SS from here in) is essentially a high level arcane caster who has better manipulation of Spheres, Orbs, Balls, Eyes, and Globes (maybe spherical bursts). Essentially anything spherical. Most of the Orb and Sphere spells require that you spend a movement portion of your round to manipulate the spell effect (if it can move). My idea is of a mage who has a bunch of whirling spheres around him, who can control (a number of them) at will; to protect himself, or to lash out at enemies.

Since this is a really, really specific case, and I wanted the mage to be allowed a number of specials, I tried to make the requisites harder to obtain.

The most important aspect of this class is that the arcane caster is able to achieve one level of spell casting for each of the ten levels of the prestige class.

Here are some of the basics so far, I plan on changing the ideas around as I get feedback and then do a final workup with flavor text. This is the first time I've tried to design a Prestige Class so bare with me...

Hit Dice: d4
Requisites:
Ability: Intelligence 15
Skills: Knowledge Arcana: 9 ranks, Knowledge Geometry: 5 ranks, Spellcraft: 7 ranks.
Feats: Any two Metamagic feats
Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells, must have any 3 "sphere" or "orb" spells.

(I originally thought that the mage might have to have at least one spherical spell for each spell level 1 through 5, but I'm not sure)

I'm not sure how to create a table so I'm skipping BAB, Saves, and Spellcasting

The BAB and Saves are just like any other wizard/sorcerer class
BAB
+0 at 1st
+1 at 2nd
+1 at 3rd
....
+4 at 9th
+5 at 10th

Saves follow the one good save (Will)

Spellcasting is +1 spell level of existing class per level of Sphere Savant prestige class.

Here are the special abilities.

1st--Sphere Control. (Control number of spheres/orbs that move up to your Int modifier as a free action) ((This is the most important aspect that I wanted for the PC))

2nd--Book of Geometry. (Same as Geomancer from Complete Arcane, p. 46) (Basically instead of pages of spells, each spell is in geometric notation and only takes up one page. This reduces the cost of the spellbook and makes it harder for other arcane casters to read.)

3rd--Sphere Focus +1, Sphere Defense +1. (Basically a +1 (focus) to DC's of the SS's spherical spells and a +1 (defense) to Saves against spells of a spherical nature.)

4th--A bonus Metamagic Feat.

5th--Sphere Mastery. (This is the tough one, I basically need help here!) (I thought sphere mastery would be control of all movable spherical spells cast as a free action.)

I don't know if I should just put something else for 5th....

6th--Sphere Focus +2, Sphere Defense +2. (As above)

7th--Enlarge Sphere. (This special would allow the SS to double the sphere's dimensions. My idea would be that the SS could double the dimensions 1 per round, and as many spheres as he has a modifier to his Intelligence. He could double spheres up to his Intelligence modifier, once per day.)

This was basically the other BIG idea that I wanted for this class. It gives a metamagic feat for free to all of the spherical spells... it might be too much...?

8th--A bonus Metamagic Feat.

9th--Sphere Focus +3, Sphere Defense +3. (As above)

10th--Sphere of Annihilation (w/ save) OR Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (from Complete Arcane). (Either one of these options. I originally thought the Sphere Savant would be able to temporarily summon a Sphere of Annihilation, once a month?, to control, and then give a Fort save if it touched an opponent. I'd use all the other control rules as written for the artifact version. That's when I began to wonder if it were too powerful. I then came across the 9th level spell Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, which does 2d6 per caster level, Fort save for partial, 5d6.)

I suppose either would work, I was going for one of those 'kill em all' types for the major 10th level special. Let me know what you think!

So, that's it so far. I take criticism pretty well. Remember that this was my very first stab at a Prestige Class.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

Aluvial

Just a few comments.

Aluvial said:

Requisites:
Ability: Intelligence 15
Skills: Knowledge Arcana: 9 ranks, Knowledge Geometry: 5 ranks, Spellcraft: 7 ranks.
Feats: Any two Metamagic feats
Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells, must have any 3 "sphere" or "orb" spells.

Click to expand...

Ability to cast 5th-level arcane spells implies Intelligence 15, so you can toss that. This seems pretty generic, though, to be honest; it seems like a relatively easy class to get in. Knowledge (Geometry) is essentially throwaway skill ranks, though. I'd prefer something else more appropriate, though -- perhaps Concentration and Sculpt Spell, or something?

Spellcasting is +1 spell level of existing class per level of Sphere Savant prestige class.

Click to expand...

Remember, you need to compare this to what they're giving up. If you're giving them full spellcasting over ten levels, and then special abilities on top of that, there's always a possibility that it might be too good not to take.

2nd--Book of Geometry. (Same as Geomancer from Complete Arcane, p. 46) (Basically instead of pages of spells, each spell is in geometric notation and only takes up one page. This reduces the cost of the spellbook and makes it harder for other arcane casters to read.)

Click to expand...

What if you're a sorcerer?

When giving out more benefits than a standard mage or sorcerer gets from those ten levels you have to give something up. There are only few things that can be taken away

1. The good will save.
2. Spellcasting ability.

In fact any caster prestige class that hands out good abilities have to take a hit in the spellcaster per level ability. The only exception is if the class has requirements that forces you to take non-caster levels before going into the class. Like the Eldrtich knight or Arcane trickster.

Otherwise your class ends up being better than the standard Wizard/Sorcerer and prestige classes are not meant to be better, but more focused.

For your class I would suggest that you loose at least one spellcaster level possibly even two. To make it a real price it should not give increased spellcasting at 1 level (and maybe again at 7th where they get a really good ability).

This makes sense if you look at it like your prestige class give mages that are specialised in spherical magic a bonus when using that, but leaves them weaker at other types of magic.

The good thing is that it will lead them to use spherical magic at most times, imply because its what they are best at.

monboesen said:

When giving out more benefits than a standard mage or sorcerer gets from those ten levels you have to give something up. There are only few things that can be taken away

1. The good will save.
2. Spellcasting ability.

Click to expand...

Another alternative may be to have just the caster level go up more slowly when casting non sphere spells, maybe missing-out on 3 or 4 caster levels over the course of the 10-level prestige class?

Good comments. Thanks.

Ability to cast 5th-level arcane spells implies Intelligence 15, so you can toss that. This seems pretty generic, though, to be honest; it seems like a relatively easy class to get in. Knowledge (Geometry) is essentially throwaway skill ranks, though. I'd prefer something else more appropriate, though -- perhaps Concentration and Sculpt Spell, or something?

Click to expand...

I see the point about the Int requirement being redundant. That's out. Sculpt Spell is a very good requirement, so I would change one of the feats to that and keep one other metamagic. Concentration is also a good requirment, so that would be added. I like the throwaway Knowledge skill though, it gives a good balance to qualify for the class.

What if you are a Sorcerer?

Click to expand...

The aspect for Sorcerers and the 2nd level special book is a problem. I was looking for something that fit for this level, to give the class a little benefit, but not a gaming one; this is nothing but a monetary benefit that adds a little to this guys cash flow. I really like the feel of it and suppose I could just say that Sorcerers would be SOL on this though.... that's very likely the solution.

When giving out more benefits than a standard mage or sorcerer gets from those ten levels you have to give something up. There are only few things that can be taken away

1. The good will save.
2. Spellcasting ability.

In fact any caster prestige class that hands out good abilities have to take a hit in the spellcaster per level ability. The only exception is if the class has requirements that forces you to take non-caster levels before going into the class. Like the Eldrtich knight or Arcane trickster.

Otherwise your class ends up being better than the standard Wizard/Sorcerer and prestige classes are not meant to be better, but more focused.

Click to expand...

As for the spell caster levels, for my purposes, I can't let them go, the NPC I need has to have the spellcasting level (for my own nefarious purposes). I will drop some of the specials though. I never really liked the special at level 5 so that's gone, and I will probably use the lesser of the two Spheres at 10th. I'll also only let the Sphere Focus and Defense go to +2. Again this is for my version.

For an 'official' version or for something I would try to publish I would make these changes...

For a final version, I would drop spell casting at 1st, and 7th levels because that's where the class gets the best specials. I would also probably use the lesser of the two specials at 10th level only because the Sphere of Annihilation is an artifact. I think that would make this guy cool though, considering that you would probably be around 19th or 20th level when you finally got that power. These few changes would bring him in line with other classes.

It looks like I would lose the good Will save also, and just set the beginning level at +1 Will. The save progression would follow as normal from there.

That would tweak him about right with the special abilities.

What do you think????

Aluvial

Aluvial said:

Hit Dice: d4
Requisites:
Ability: Intelligence 15
Skills: Knowledge Arcana: 9 ranks, Knowledge Geometry: 5 ranks, Spellcraft: 7 ranks.
Feats: Any two Metamagic feats
Spells: Ability to cast 5th level arcane spells, must have any 3 "sphere" or "orb" spells.

Click to expand...

I would suggest changing it to a certain level of spellcasting ability, that way a warloc could join in if the appropriate invocations are made

As such, the int requirement is odd. But, it could make sense that if your int drops too low then you lose access to the classes abilities. overall, I think it is fine.

The skills are all right, but the geometry knowledge effectively wastes skill points. Maybe you could use it somehow in the class? make it worthwhile to not only have those ranks but to put even more into it. Also, you might want to define what exactly it does as a skill outside of this class.

Skill focus (knowledge (geometry)) would be a high cost which would help make the class harder to get into and justify stronger powers once you are in.

spell focus (orb/sphere spells) could be another requirement. It takes a bit of doing, and doesnt completely fit with the rest of the system, but it goes about as well as spell focus (evil) from other parts

Aluvial said:

I'm not sure how to create a table so I'm skipping BAB, Saves, and Spellcasting

Click to expand...

As I also have never bothered to learn how I usually do it like this.

HD: d4
BAB: Poor
Saves: F: poor, R: poor, W: good
Spellcasting: +1/level (or 10/10)

It tends to work out pretty well in a small area.

Although, I would probably still cut out level 1 and 10. That way it is 8/10 total and can get some big boosts to spheres.

Aluvial said:

1st--Sphere Control. (Control number of spheres/orbs that move up to your Int modifier as a free action) ((This is the most important aspect that I wanted for the PC))

Click to expand...

What does this ability do? I am guessing you mean something like flaming sphere, but there really arent many spells like that.

Have you made up new ones? What does this ability even do??

Maybe you could do something like deflect arrows that only works for orbs and has some sort of chance for failure.

Eventually doing extra damage on spheres and such with a higher caster level.

Requiring a certain amount of spell slots to be used on sphere type spells each day could also work. It is an odd requirement, but it could work, even for sorcs.

Make it like the domain slots. Each level of casting has two slots which must be used for orb spells.

Aluvial said:

2nd--Book of Geometry. (Same as Geomancer from Complete Arcane, p. 46) (Basically instead of pages of spells, each spell is in geometric notation and only takes up one page. This reduces the cost of the spellbook and makes it harder for other arcane casters to read.)

Click to expand...

I would also like to know what this does for sorcs. I could look it up in complete arcane later on but I think it should still be all defined in this class as much as possible

Aluvial said:

3rd--Sphere Focus +1, Sphere Defense +1. (Basically a +1 (focus) to DC's of the SS's spherical spells and a +1 (defense) to Saves against spells of a spherical nature.)

Click to expand...

It should probably also add to ac as many orb spells dont grant a save for either side.

Aluvial said:

4th--A bonus Metamagic Feat.

Click to expand...

It should probably be limited to only working on sphere and orb spells cast by the character.

Aluvial said:

10th--Sphere of Annihilation (w/ save) OR Sphere of Ultimate Destruction (from Complete Arcane). (Either one of these options. I originally thought the Sphere Savant would be able to temporarily summon a Sphere of Annihilation, once a month?, to control, and then give a Fort save if it touched an opponent. I'd use all the other control rules as written for the artifact version. That's when I began to wonder if it were too powerful. I then came across the 9th level spell Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, which does 2d6 per caster level, Fort save for partial, 5d6.)

Click to expand...

I truely, truely hate the sphere of annihilation Anything that kills instantly without much of a chance to do anything about it is bad in my book.

10th level abilities are supposed to be very tough. Especially if you cut out a caster level for this level.

perhaps the ability to spontaneously quicken one of the casters orb spells each round for some other cost? I would suggest focus if this was a psionic character, for this guy however it isnt quite that easy.


depending on what you change or revise I'll put up some more suggestions later have a good one!

Scion said:

I would suggest changing it to a certain level of spellcasting ability, that way a warloc could join in if the appropriate invocations are made

Click to expand...

Well 5th level incantations/spell level. That puts a wizard a 9th level...

As such, the int requirement is odd. But, it could make sense that if your int drops too low then you lose access to the classes abilities. overall, I think it is fine.

Click to expand...

I'm going to drop this requirement in favor of others. To make him lost class features is a big pain...

The skills are all right, but the geometry knowledge effectively wastes skill points. Maybe you could use it somehow in the class? make it worthwhile to not only have those ranks but to put even more into it. Also, you might want to define what exactly it does as a skill outside of this class.

Skill focus (knowledge (geometry)) would be a high cost which would help make the class harder to get into and justify stronger powers once you are in.

spell focus (orb/sphere spells) could be another requirement. It takes a bit of doing, and doesnt completely fit with the rest of the system, but it goes about as well as spell focus (evil) from other parts

Click to expand...

I like the Knowledge (geometry) because it lends itself to some interesting aspects. Basically, it is one of the big cost requirements to get in the class. I should be able to easily come up with some ideas for what the skill can do for you... probably would give a bonus to Profession (engineering), and even help with Dwarves finding stonework traps.

As for Skill Focus (Knowledge (geometry)), it would justify some of the stronger powers I wanted to introduce, but it is just too much. Sculpt Spell is a much better way to limit a caster. That feat might have its own Pre-requisite...?

Your third suggestion spell focus (spherical spells) could be a requirement, but, like you said, it would take some doing to work it into the existing 3.5 system. Therefore, no. Good idea though for my homebrew...

Sphere Control

What does this ability do? I am guessing you mean something like flaming sphere, but there really arent many spells like that.

Have you made up new ones? What does this ability even do??

Maybe you could do something like deflect arrows that only works for orbs and has some sort of chance for failure.

Click to expand...

Actually I was suprised to find plenty of spells in the Wizards produced books. There are:
1--0 level
6--1st level
4--2nd level
5--3rd level
14--4th level
4--5th level
4--6th level (+1 in Spells and Spellcraft)
4--7th level
4--8th level
5--9th level

I also plan on making a couple up and putting that in a book that would go with the prestige class. Basically a few spells that go into that 2nd level spellbook. Again, sorcerers would get the shaft...

Eventually doing extra damage on spheres and such with a higher caster level.

Requiring a certain amount of spell slots to be used on sphere type spells each day could also work. It is an odd requirement, but it could work, even for sorcs.

Make it like the domain slots. Each level of casting has two slots which must be used for orb spells.

Click to expand...

These are ideas that I kicked around also.... but I'm not sure if I would implement them. One could definitely take the place of my 5th level special...

2nd level Special -- Book of Geometry

I would also like to know what this does for sorcs. I could look it up in complete arcane later on but I think it should still be all defined in this class as much as possible

Click to expand...

This essentially wouldn't do the sorcerer any good. But I'm not sure if I care about that particular aspect of it. It is a small ability for the class and it gives the class a role-playing/monetary benefit. It's a nice break from the front loading a lot of the Prestige Classes I've seen give.

Sphere Focus and Sphere Defense

It should probably also add to ac as many orb spells dont grant a save for either side.

Click to expand...

Good idea, consider it added. Lot of other classes give similar benefits.

4th-- Bonus Metamagic Feat

It should probably be limited to only working on sphere and orb spells cast by the character.

Click to expand...

I was going to make it a Item Creation or Metamagic feat, but I really liked the idea of limiting it to one. Too many options makes it too much. I do think that Wizards deserve a bonus Metamagic everynow and again. This gives the class one less than Wizards who pick up levels 10 though 20 and effectively pushes the next bonus to 14th level.

Sphere of Annihilation

I truely, truely hate the sphere of annihilation Anything that kills instantly without much of a chance to do anything about it is bad in my book.

10th level abilities are supposed to be very tough. Especially if you cut out a caster level for this level.

perhaps the ability to spontaneously quicken one of the casters orb spells each round for some other cost? I would suggest focus if this was a psionic character, for this guy however it isnt quite that easy.

Click to expand...

This is a good point, but I really liked where this was heading. Both suggestions, the Sphere of Annihilation and the Sphere of Ultimate Destruction are nasty.

If I give the Annihilation, I would have to give it a Fort Save. The sphere control rules are just too cool to pass up for this final feature. Besides, limiting it to once a month makes it an uncommon occurance. Perhaps I could also make a full round to summon, and have it last 10 rounds, one for each level of Sphere Savant.

If I go the other route, it is almost as bad. It is basically a sphere of disintegration that does 2d6 per level. That's going to be 38 to 40 d6 at this guys level. A save drops that to 5d6. I would want to reintroduce the Sphere of Annihilation movement rules to it though...

As for quickened casting of the spherical spells, that's also a good idea. I just thought I'd match the deadliness of other 10 level prestige class powers with the Sphere of Annihilation.

depending on what you change or revise I'll put up some more suggestions later have a good one!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. I'm going to revise and post the new suggested class up real soon!

Aluvial

I like the basics of this but I think you could cement it with a dedicated list of spells, including some new ones.

Crystal balls are certainly spheres and some divination at higher levels might be really interesting. It would also empower the higher ups to find new initiates.

Sommoning circles also come to mind. The fullness of protection. The perfection of a defensive shield.

The contemplation of perfection and the universiality of the circle might be good fodder for the fluff. Its a tempting start. I could see this prestige class being limited to a particular type of geometric runic magic. Reading a spellbook from this class might be more difficult and make for some good game play.


S.

Aluvial said:

Aluvial said:

1st--Sphere Control. (Control number of spheres/orbs that move up to your Int modifier as a free action) ((This is the most important aspect that I wanted for the PC))

Click to expand...

Scion said:

Sphere Control

What does this ability do? I am guessing you mean something like flaming sphere, but there really arent many spells like that.

Have you made up new ones? What does this ability even do??

Maybe you could do something like deflect arrows that only works for orbs and has some sort of chance for failure.

Click to expand...

Actually I was suprised to find plenty of spells in the Wizards produced books. There are:
1--0 level
6--1st level
4--2nd level
5--3rd level
14--4th level
4--5th level
4--6th level (+1 in Spells and Spellcraft)
4--7th level
4--8th level
5--9th level

I also plan on making a couple up and putting that in a book that would go with the prestige class. Basically a few spells that go into that 2nd level spellbook. Again, sorcerers would get the shaft...

Click to expand...

I am afraid that you really didnt answer the question I was asking

What does the ability even do? The only sphere I can think of offhand which you can 'control' from round to round is the flaming sphere. If there are others in different sources or if I missed one in the core fine, but I doubt that I missed 20+! I dont have all of wizards books nor do I feel like searching through what I have.. all I want to know is the following: What exactly does this ability do? And what sort of spells does it effect?

If it only effects things like flaming sphere and nothing like the various orbs and such it should definately give examples and be very clear. As it is, it really doesnt seem to do much.

I havent read a lot of the spells for awhile (I am currently playing a psion so not much point in reading new spells that come out) so it is possible there are just tons of spheres which stick around for long periods of time and require control.

All in all, it just needs to be clearer, along with some examples of what it does and does not effect.

I wrote you some general comments in the other thread, here I'm writing you some specific comments.

1) If you intend this class to be Wizard-only (or Wizard-mostly ), you can just toss in a required Wizard level X (it's more honest than putting indirect requirements), but it looks like you want this class open for others.

2) I think an Int 15 or similar requirement is dangerous and unfair for other arcane classes. It's already pointed out that it gives no extra restrictions for Wizards.

3) Knowledge(Geometry) doesn't affect the character. Nonetheless it has just the right flavor for this class. Keep it, but be sure that the ranks are low so that it doesn't cost too much for Sorcerers who take it as cross-class. OTOH, if some of the special abilities requires a roll, make it use Geometry instead of Spellcraft: this way, the character HAS a use for it beyond flavor, and is encouraged to buy more ranks later.

4) What does Metamagic has to do with this PrCl concept??? To me, nothing beside the ability to double the size. Therefore, the requisite of "any 2 MM feats" sucks hard; for the same reason, don't give free MM feats! I mean, why should a sphere savant be better with metamagic than the average sorcerer? OTOH, see point 7) for MM which works only with spheres...

5) Sphere Control: I don't know how it works, but I'd prefer if it gives you the ability to control 1 sphere per LEVEL in this PrCl, instead of Int. This way (a) doesn't discriminate sorcerers and bards, and (b) gives you a progression which makes you want to advance further in the class

6) Book of geomtry is a nice idea, but hard to come up with alternatives for non-wizards. I'm going to drop this for the moment.

7) Enlarge Sphere.... hard to evaluate. If this is another key opint of the class, you may want to consider it carefully. The possibility of just giving free metamagic feats (by choice) that only work for spheres is fine overall, as long as the savant still has the regular restrictions for MM.
Let's see how many however, 'cause the class is already powerful IMHO.

8) Sphere of Annihilation is a nice 10th level apotheosis, but restrict is SERIOUSLY. Trust me, if you can summon the sphere 1/week for 3 rounds, it's already a good ability.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, here's a variant progression:

1st - Sphere Control (1 sphere/level)
2nd - Sphere Focus +1
3rd - Sphere Defense +1
4th - Sphere Metamagic
5th - Sphere Focus +2
6th - Sphere Defense +2
7th - Sphere Metamagic
8th - Sphere Focus +3
9th - Sphere Defense +3
10th - Sphere of Annihilation

Since MM is going to be more valuable for Sorcerers, you may still give Book of Geometry to Wizards for compensation (@lv 1). Another possibility is NOT to give the bonus metamagics, but instead to give 1 bonus spell known (a sphere, obviously), which again is better for Sorcerers than Wizards. However, I see that you'd have to drop the metamagic idea which you liked a lot.

Finally, I still think those abilities are very powerful. A wizard loses 2 bonus feats and gets the equivalent of at least 7-8 feats altho only with spheres. That's quite ok, but I wouldn't add anything more.