Wal-Magic, a question of assumptions

In JohnSnow's thread "Has D&D become too...D&Dish?" a comment was brought up about a Wal-Mart emporium of magic items. It got me thinking, and the thought was briefly touched on again in the thread about Mearls' revised rust monster. So, here's my question for the phenomenal DMs out there.

While neither the SRD nor core books ever make explicit mention of how to go about procuring magic items with cold, hard coin, there are a few statements that imply that such is absolutely possible. One, the standard method of generating treasure is random dice rolls. Coin is, by far, the most likely part of any treasure where magic items the least likely part. Even less likely than finding magical items (which becomes a regular occurance in later levels) is the likelihood of finding a particular magic item that's useable and useful to the PCs. Once the party has moved on to +2 weapons, the +1 weapons dropped by most of the drow soldiers in your dungeon are really no more than vendor trash. Couple this with the fact that the CR system, which I assume skilled and very experienced DMs can do without, that assumes not only that characters have at or near the suggested wealth for their level, but also that the bulk of it is in some useable and useful form. Unless you intend to clobber the monsters with your platinum-laden purse, coin doesn't fit the bill. Two, population rules for settlements yield a gold piece value. It is assumed that anything under this value can be found and purchased in such a place. That really leads me to believe that if the the cost of the magic item is under that village/town/city's gold limit, the characters are more than welcome to buy said item. More to the point, it seems like the game assumes that they will. So, just exactly how do you run a game without the magic item emporioum in large population centers? There's no Sam's Magic Club in my metropoli, but if the players tell me they want to buy it, and it's below the gold piece value, I generally let them get it. I don't even worry about how they got it, or I might have to face up to the emporium concept.

If you're interested in economics, DnD isn't for you.

I really like economics, but that's beside the point. I don't particularly have a problem with my personal solution to the problem, but others seem to take offense to it, and still others suggested they have a solution. I'm interested in those alternate solutions.

I'm not taking offense.

I've never had a DM who had a problem with it. We assume we can get nearly anything at a big city. A 100,000 gp limit counts for a lot.

ZSutherland said:

While neither the SRD nor core books ever make explicit mention of how to go about procuring magic items with cold, hard coin, there are a few statements that imply that such is absolutely possible. One, the standard method of generating treasure is random dice rolls. Coin is, by far, the most likely part of any treasure where magic items the least likely part. Even less likely than finding magical items (which becomes a regular occurance in later levels) is the likelihood of finding a particular magic item that's useable and useful to the PCs. Once the party has moved on to +2 weapons, the +1 weapons dropped by most of the drow soldiers in your dungeon are really no more than vendor trash. Couple this with the fact that the CR system, which I assume skilled and very experienced DMs can do without, that assumes not only that characters have at or near the suggested wealth for their level, but also that the bulk of it is in some useable and useful form. Two, population rules for settlements yield a gold piece value. It is assumed that anything under this value can be found and purchased in such a place. That really leads me to believe that if the the cost of the magic item is under that village/town/city's gold limit, the characters are more than welcome to buy said item. More to the point, it seems like the game assumes that they will.

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I'll preface by saying most of my experience is in pre-3.x systems, without the ideas of "population rules for settlements" and wealth-by-level guidelines. That said, the same implicit ideas apply.

You are absolutely right in suggesting that the impetus for magic items sales is going to come from adventuring parties either upgrading or disposing of things they've found but cannot use. A secondary source for sales might be stay-at-home artificers making (usually minor) stuff for general use; things like potions, scrolls, etc. in all systems and minor items in 3.x.

However, ask yourself whether there are there enough adventuring parties and suchlike to keep a full-scale magic shop in operation anywhere, never mind in every town. The answer is (almost certainly) no. Which leads to the next question: who is doing the selling? Sometimes, it'll be a guild...usually a Wizards' guild...selling things they've made and-or bought from adventurers. But often, it'll be the parties themselves, trading with each other again probably via meeting at guildhalls etc. (the exception to all this is monstrous places like Waterdeep that *are* big enough to support a few magic traders, but places like that are few and far between...)

So, just because a given town has a value attached to it for items does not, or should not, automatically imply the items are there. It's random chance, based on whatever any other parties passing through might be willing to part with and-or whatever other sources the town might have (e.g. a long-retired adventurer just died, her estate consists of several magic items and her old spellbook which have just been put up for sale).

If I were you I'd scrap the value-by-town-population idea entirely and wing it. You should have an idea for your world of what areas have lots of adventuring and what don't, with items more likely to be found in the frontier towns than elsewhere. There's a random element, as I've mentioned. And, keep in mind that what's for sale (other than very minor stuff) is going to trend toward the *less* useful...if it was more useful, the seller would keep it and use it! (I've had one PC in my game looking to buy a Girdle of Giant Strength for years...still no luck, even in Waterdeep; anyone who has one ain't about to sell it, and she's not (quite) the sort to kill for it...never mind that if one *did* come up for sale she'd have to be very lucky to get to it before someone else did)

One way to figure out what might be for sale is to look over your party's treasury for the last few adventures, and see what they've sold. Chances are, they're keeping the same sort of things other parties would keep and selling the sort of things other parties would sell, to some degree.

Lanefan

p.s. I detest economics, and anyone who tries buying low in one city to sell high in another in my game is asking for a smackdown...or a new DM, 'cause I won't run it. However, I do recognize the need to be able to sell items...and thus, to be able to sometimes buy them.

Magic items cost a lot to get, even wholesale, and they are a speciality item, so in none but the very largest of cities is it possible to earn enough to specialize in them. (At least, if you're getting them legally) As such, they're treated as an offshoot of a preexisting business. For example, Smith Black the Blacksmith might have a couple of enchanted swords as display pieces, while Hurgle the Mad might have a couple of enchanted amulets in his apothecary. There's no one place to buy magic items, but it's pretty easy to look around and find them. There might also be some floating around in pawn shops and the black market.

Err ... I'm kind of lost when you ask "how do you run the game".

For me I would use the barter system in some cases, even if it is unfair to the players ... I mean if they really want that third immovable rod ... you know the sort of thing.

I usually run the game with a lot of specialist shops in large centers ... no "emporiums" per se.

How magic items are obtained are going to be suited to the campaign in question.

In my Sigil campaign, you can find anything for a price. There are magic shops, people who will make you exactly what you want, and others who will "obtain" things you're looking for. And, if it isn't in Sigil itself, you can find a portal to take you somewhere that does.

In another campaign I ran in the Outlands, the local government handled magic item shopping. They would buy things from adventurers and then use them for their own troops or sell them to adventurers who they deemed "safe" (ie not Evil or destrucive adventurers who were a threat to their rulership). Thus, to get the best items, you had to pay lip service to the government.

In another campaign it was mostly traveling merchants who hired bodyguards to keep them safe. They would travel the countryside selling their wares. They didn't have anything too amazing, but if one was in town, the adventurers would gather round and look for interesting items.

So, campaign setting to campaign setting will and should vary.

ZSutherland said:

So, just exactly how do you run a game without the magic item emporioum in large population centers?

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I suppose you junk the wealth-by-level (which really means "magic items," for the most part) and associated CR assumptions built into the system. You'd have to put some thought into which monsters to use, but any DM worth his salt should be able to exercise some judgment, IMO.

You could also use wealth-by-level as-is, but remove the assumption that it easily translates into magic items. The problem with that is the ease with which magic items are created in 3E. Even if the PCs didn't have a high-level wizard with the right feats, such an NPC is sure to exist in major population centers, and if the PCs supply the monetary wealth, then BtB, that NPC could make the item. So you also have to modify the ease with which magic items can be created. Either make the feats rare, or allow the feats to be common, but build-in some adventure-based requirements beyond just X number of gold pieces (e.g. the breath of an honest thief, and things like that).

The other problem is that once you've made your chosen modifications, you've seriously decreased the utility of published d20 support material. NPC stat blocks will need modification, CR assumptions in published adventures will be wrong, etc, etc. If you're doing your own thing, that may not be a problem. If you like to use d20 support material, it will be really annoying.

It comes down to a few options, in my opinion:

1. Play the game with the as-is assumptions. If you don't like the WAL-MAGIC approach, keep it in the background. (Sounds like you're already doing this.)

2. Modify the game assumptions. Can be a lotta effort, especially if you use published stuff, but you can make it work.

3. Use a different system.

There was a recent thread on this over in House Rules were a poster suggested a system where the cost of the item set the Gather Info check to find it.. some items just could not be found for sale.

Check here: Magic Items - Avalability of Magic Items

I like it because it provides a reason for Gather Information that has a definitive impact on the party, it provides the opportunity for role-playing and plot-hook introduction as part of the buying process, it provides a bit more of a proper feel {IMHO} to the setting by avoiding the Wal-Magic trend, and it does not get deep down into the economics non-fun stuff.

Finding the item may mean you find someone willing to craft it.. not having it just sitting on the shelf...or, better yet, may discover tales of an abondoned fort with a dungeon that such an item was carried by a grand adventurer, may he rest in peace...
This all makes the suspension of disbelief easier when you are looking for a PC specific magic item.

I have always thought it midly funny that roleplayers want to skip to the adventure without having a reason for the adventure.. then get silly about 'railroading' when the DM doesn't have a choice due to the players skipping the easy ways for the GM to introduce a plot that provides a good reason for the PC to want to go along, and a proper type award to look forward to on completion.

Oh well.. check out the HR thread and bump it up if you think its cool.