I need feedback from experienced DM's

I'm playing a wizard, and my DM has started what I'm afraid will develop into a spell-banning spree. I recently reached level 12 and so far the only 6th-level spells he has banned are Antimagic Field and Project Image. But when I told him about the 7th-level spells I intend to choose at level 13 I was told that several of them would probably be banned. Ethereal Jaunt, Limited Wish, Simulacrum, and Spell Turning were all deemed too much of a problem. And this is just from the PHB. Our DM has always been very reasonable, but all the new stuff in 3rd Edition has put the fear of god in him.

So if you have DM'ed a high level campaign I would like some feedback. Which of these spells, if any, are broken in your opinion? I should probably add that this is a generic campaign, with normal amounts of magic.

I've never banneda spell or been in a game where a spell was banned. I've been involved with 3 d20 games that have gone 20+ level and a few others that didn't quite reach that high. I've yet to see any spell, even from the mounds of optional material and books, that upset a game.

If your DM isn't experienced at running or especially designing higher level adventures, he's not alone. Few of us really are. But ideally the adventures should be designed not only to tolerate high level spells and abilities, but to require them. He should be creating lairs that can only be accessed by powerful transportation magic, opponents who can only be stopped by the strongest spells, etc. A very tall order indeed!

Offhand, I haven't seen much trouble with any of the spells you're describing. However, it is totally the DM's choice to ban spells. It is MUCH easier to ban spells and then slowly let them in than it is to allow them and then try to get them out when they are revealed to be too powerful.

I would go along with what your DM is doing. After awhile, in a not-pushy way, I would ask if he'd be willing to try them out in a limited way to see if they were really broken or not. For example, a staff of AntiMagic with 3 charges on it that you could find somewhere and use briefly. Or heck, let him bring it on you from an enemy, let him see how powerful (or not) it is.

If the DM is fairly new, those spells are all ones that can have some complicating factors -- remembering what gets stopped in an antimagic field, and what doesn't, figuring out the power on a simulacrum, etc. I think it's reasonable for your DM to be cautious, and to fear a player who starts using a potential game-breaker (in his mind) twice per day or making antimagic boots for the party barbarian...

So talk with him, but don't be pushy, and I think you'll be fine.

-Tacky

personally, i've never done anything like this, but i play in a game where interplanar travel spells are banned (but we knew this from the beginning).

you should probably ask your DM to go through the entire spell list (at least 6 thru 9) to get him to commit to a banned spell list now . at least this way you'll know what to expect as your PC levels up. if the spell list gets too limited, it may be time to multi-class.

on the other hand, if your DM:
retroactively bans a spell, or
bans a spell simply because you want to learn it, or
bans a spell because you've used it in a way he hasn't thought of,

it may be time to get a new DM


of course you could tell your DM to start posting here to get other people's opinions on if a spell should be banned, how to fix a 'broken' spell, or how to counteract a PC using a certain spells.

of course, this may be bad for you...

This really worries me, because not one of the spells you mentioned are unbalanced or "problem" spells.

It sounds like he's suffering from culture shock. Just wait until a party fighter does 100 points of damage in a round; he'll start to twitch!

I'd probably handle this by talking to him about the specific problem he has with any given spell. If he's reasonable, ask him to try the game as written, and then talk to you if there are problems. Unlike Mr Fidgit, I'm fine with retroactively banning or changing spells that are unbalanced. That's assuming you're tried it for a while and it clearly has a problem compared to other spells of its level.

It might help to point him at a high-level story hour here on the boards, either my own or someone else's. They often make a good example of high level spell usage, and show what's reasonable and expected.

The more pertinent issue is why is he banning these spells? What is it about these spells that make them unusable in his campaign?

I mean, I've banned fireball in my campaign. I have my reasons, too.

I don't like it. Sometimes that's reason enough.

But your DM is certainly well within his rights to ban any and all spells he sees fit to. As long as he lets you know in sufficient time, and as long as the ban holds true across the board (NPCs as well as you), then all you can do is appeal his decisions on a case-by-case basis.

it just didn't sound to me like Ormraxes' DM is putting any thought into the banning of those spells, making it an arbitrary decision and/or being spiteful towards his player. i think there's a difference between banning a spell and giving a good reason for it and banning a spell because you don't like it

no offense barsoomcore, but if i was a player in your game, i'd still ask why those spells were banned. if those spells were out from the begining of the game, i wouldn't have a problem with it. but its a completely different situation if someone said "my wizard is studying these spells to get when i go up a level" and the DM said' "i'll probably ban them"


and i even plugged ENWorld in my post!

and Piratecat, if you come back to this, would you please check out House Rules (http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25822), i'm still curious about pigs-and-gaming

Thanks for all the answers. I should emphasize that our DM is a very good DM and he has many years of experience with 2nd Edition campaigns around 9th to 11th level. And the idea about trying the spells in a limited way is good but I'm afraid it won't work well in this campaign. We're playing return to the temple of elemental evil right now, and we are under the impression there's a time limit to this thing (to say the least). So if I forego these spell now, I probably won't get them in the near future. I have a hunch I will need some of these spells now.

We have already had 21 or so deaths and we're only halfway through. Our DM has actually posted them on his site, with funny comments about each death. Last session we had our third near-TPK, with me as the sole survivor again. What this means is that we're going up against a red dragon with a lvl 12 wizard, a lvl 10 rogue or sorcerer, and a lvl 8 cleric. Later, when the Madness-augmented Destruction spells start flying around the room I suspect my base Fort save won't be enough, considering the best magic item I own (that I have managed to Identify) is a cloak of resistance +1.

Also the point about the fighter doing 100 points of damage is a good one, but unfortunately our warrior-types usually die within a session or two, so they have never had the chance to really impress. So we have ended up with a party without martial characters. Consequently, every difficult encounter has boiled down to one of three: 1) Everyone else goes full defense, hoping my wizard will be able to kill the enemies with Hasted Ice Bursts before we all die; 2) We are forced to retreat using Dimension Doors and Wall of Force; 3) Near-TPK. I'm afraid this has made it look like the wizard is an unbalanced class. What is your opinion on this, is the wizard really too good? And where do I find this high-level story hour stuff?

Didn't see your last response before I posted my reply, Fidgit. I just want to say this is not out of spite as we agree on almost everything about D&D. I think it's more about him being very cautious, since he has read something about campaign-spoiling non-core material.