Are my players in big trouble?

The group is closing in on the big showdown. The Villian is a 10th level cleric of Neuril (sp?). The party consists of a human evoker (5th), a halfling mage (5th), a human (ex-pal 3/fgr 2), a human cleric of we-jas(5th), and a 5th level ghalae (sp?) from Savage Species.

The players also have help from 2 5th level rangers and they COULD have help from a 7th level fighter but he won't make it in time (which could change if I needed it to).

The players are trying to defend a town. The town has been mostly evacuated but 37 first level commoners, an aristrocrat lvl2 and 2 2nd level experts remain.

The villians have a wraith, about 15 second level fighters and if the players don't rouse and kill it by the next night fall, a gargantuan zombie.

Wraiths are nasty. Especially if, say, it landed in the commoners, would end up with three dozen of them in a single minute...

Otherwise, it depends on the tactics involved, really. It could be a slaughter from either side.

Are the Ftr-2s DMG type Elites, or average joes in chainmail? If the former, I can't see how the Clr-10 can lose.

Edit: 15 elite Ftr-2s vs a 5th level group is nearly an EL+5 encounter on its own. If the group had a 6th level Sorcerer w Fireball it'd be different, but 5th level is a tough one to get through. No iterative attacks yet...

just__al said:

The group is closing in on the big showdown. The Villian is a 10th level cleric of Neuril (sp?). The party consists of a human evoker (5th), a halfling mage (5th), a human (ex-pal 3/fgr 2), a human cleric of we-jas(5th), and a 5th level ghalae (sp?) from Savage Species.

The players also have help from 2 5th level rangers and they COULD have help from a 7th level fighter but he won't make it in time (which could change if I needed it to).

The players are trying to defend a town. The town has been mostly evacuated but 37 first level commoners, an aristrocrat lvl2 and 2 2nd level experts remain.

The villians have a wraith, about 15 second level fighters and if the players don't rouse and kill it by the next night fall, a gargantuan zombie.

Click to expand...

I dunno....honestly I think that it is a bit too challenging for a 5th level party. I suppose tactics can prevail but that seems like an awful lot to throw at them. Maybe take the cleric down to 7th level or so and not as many fighters?

Has your group consistently demonstrated good tactics?
Have they routinely taken out stronger opponents because of them?
Are they equipped like a “standard” 5th level party?
Will the enemy have to all fit through the same point (such as only one assailable gate) or is the town open.
If the enemy has to gather to attack, the evoker can equalize the fight quickly or even make it a complete joke.(“So, how many fighters are left after my fireball?”)

Since they are the defenders, the party may have some other equalizing factors available – traps, pits, etc. Of course the party has no rogues so that may limit that option.

On the villains side, 15 2nd level fighters with buffing and support spells from a 10th level cleric – plus a wraith – If these villains are played intelligently your party is facing a losing battle (unless, again, they’ve demonstrated superb tactics and or some of the other above factors).

S'mon said:

Are the Ftr-2s DMG type Elites, or average joes in chainmail? If the former, I can't see how the Clr-10 can lose.

Edit: 15 elite Ftr-2s vs a 5th level group is nearly an EL+5 encounter on its own. If the group had a 6th level Sorcerer w Fireball it'd be different, but 5th level is a tough one to get through. No iterative attacks yet...

Click to expand...

The fighters are one of 3 types.

A) Studded leather, longbow, short sword and buckler - pointblank shot, precise shot, dodge, mobility

B) Banded mail - bastard sword, small shield - EWP: bastard sword, improved init, weapon focus bastard sword, power attack

c) Chain mail, bucklers, glaive, shortsword - combat reflexes, weapon focus: glaive, hold the line, expertise

I could bump them down to 12 (4 of each) or even 9. They've done pretty well against "patrols" of these fighters including one skirmish with a 3rd level cleric backing them up.

The group does have 2 wizards so they have a total of 5 3rd level spells between the 2 of them because they each get a bonus spell for high int and the evoker has the extra evocation spell. Also of note, they have a magic missle wand (5th level caster) with about 15 charges left.

Mort said:

Has your group consistently demonstrated good tactics?
Have they routinely taken out stronger opponents because of them?
Are they equipped like a “standard” 5th level party?
Will the enemy have to all fit through the same point (such as only one assailable gate) or is the town open.
If the enemy has to gather to attack, the evoker can equalize the fight quickly or even make it a complete joke.(“So, how many fighters are left after my fireball?”)

Since they are the defenders, the party may have some other equalizing factors available – traps, pits, etc. Of course the party has no rogues so that may limit that option.

On the villains side, 15 2nd level fighters with buffing and support spells from a 10th level cleric – plus a wraith – If these villains are played intelligently your party is facing a losing battle (unless, again, they’ve demonstrated superb tactics and or some of the other above factors).

Click to expand...

The town has erected Chevaux de Frise


around the town and there is a trench behind it (full of lamp oil) and finally haybales behind them for archery cover. There is a gap in the spikes but there is a big wooden barrier to cover the gap.

The party has done very well encountering smaller groups of the fighters backed up by a 3rd level cleric. I want this encounter to be difficult, very difficult, but not impossible. This encounter should yield the party the clue that leads them into the real plot of the campaign.

Too tough?

I think this is a bit too much of a challenge for the group. The wraith can wreak havoc and create more wraiths that the 10th level cleric can try to exert control over. Of course, if the cleric can't, then the wraiths can attack both sides. Still, you are looking at a bad situation since the wraith is likely to get in and start killing off people w/o being seen. Remember that a wraith in incorporeal and has no need to worry about conventional walls.

Now, if the group has consistently demonstrated good tactics in the past, and has done a great job setting up the defenses to their advantage, that might be enough of a playing field leveler. But, probably not.

The biggest challenge for you will probably be not having a TPK and keep the combat believable. If the Cleric knows what he is facing, why not use bull's strength on the zombie, cat's grace and eagle's splendor on the wraith? (Improving it's touch attack and increasing it's AC as well as the DC of its drain.) Knowing that there will probably be more wraiths soon, the cleric would also use eagle's splendor on himself. This improves rebuke. That is a lot of buffing and we haven't even gotten to the point where we are talking 4 & 5th level spells. Sure, Flamestrike is nice and scary, but would it be the best option for this guy? Spell Resistance would give him a 22, which will be bad odds for the spellcasters, even with a wand of MM. Greater Magic Weapon could be used a few times and make the archers even more of a threat. If he memorizes Animate Dead, he will get to "recycle" the fighters. The party needs to be able to take him out fast but they will also have the wraith to worry about. The zombie and the fighters alone would be a tough challenge, but add in the wraith and the 10th level cleric, it will be very tough.

The defenses will help. But, the wraith can still get in without any problems. As well, the cleric has access to Airwalk. A lot will depend on how well prepped the cleric is in regards to spell selection.

Given that the PCs have time to prepare, and can enlist the aid of the villagers (Three Amigos, anyone), this is doable. I would drop the Wraiths, however. That will be too difficult.