Why are reflex saves immune to anything that is detrimental to dexterity?

fett527 · Sep 17, 2003

That's my question. Is there an official word on this? Has this been hotly debated before? Looking for some opinions and official ruling if there has been one.

DreamChaser · Sep 17, 2003

fett527 said:
That's my question. Is there an official word on this? Has this been hotly debated before? Looking for some opinions and official ruling if there has been one.

I don't understand what you mean?

Maybe an example would help.

DC

dcollins · Sep 17, 2003

Ease-of-use.

Belbarrus · Sep 17, 2003

It sounds like what they mean is: if you lose your Dexterity bonus (stunned, flat footed, etc) why do you still get Reflex Saves? If that is not what the original poster is asking, then I am confused also.

iwatt · Sep 17, 2003

I've had this doubt as well. I can see a full reflex when flat-footed (i.e allowing you to avoid an instantenous effect as fireball or a breath attack). But when stunned, you can't react. So you shouldn't even get a saving throw. I think this situation can be handled by a line someweer (I don't remeber were) that says that in some circumstances a DM might say a saving throw is not allowed. Now it behooves (sp?) us to decide these:

- stunned ( I believ you'v lost all abilty to react, although you aren't herlpless)
- helpless (as above with the added fact that your AC considers that you have DEX =0 and not DEX 10.
- Blinded (depends, no saving throw versus silent quickened fireballs, but I'd allow a saving throw against other normal effects, with some circumsatance penalty)

any others?

By the way, how does a flying rogue EVADE a fireball centered around him. I can see a half damage for a succesful save as normal (curled into a tight ball a second before the blast for example), but how does he survive unscathed?

DM2 · Sep 17, 2003

iwatt said:
By the way, how does a flying rogue EVADE a fireball centered around him. I can see a half damage for a succesful save as normal (curled into a tight ball a second before the blast for example), but how does he survive unscathed?

He reacts before he is consciously aware of the danger, folding wings and dropping a few feet like a stone while pulling his cloak over his face and neck, avoiding all but the fringes of the blast....

Or anything else you can think of.

Evasion...so he's evading the blast to some degree. It is tough to imagine how though, since the rogue never actually leavs his 5' spot while evading it. Then again, combat is imperfectly modeled by turn-based actions anyway, so turning a blind eye to what would seem a logical problem with him evading it is usually a good idea.

DM2

Ranger REG · Sep 17, 2003

Because that is what it is, reflex. You can't control it, it's your body's defense mechanism that get you out of the way of harm (e.g., special attack).

BSF · Sep 17, 2003

An official ruling on how Ref saves work when you are stunned & helpless would be nice. Personally, I don't see how you could save under those circumstances unless you rule that the target twitched at just the right moment, or something else like that.

As for evasion while flying, I see no reason why that would be any different. Of course, I have always imagined that fireballs, breath weapons, etc will fill the entire area, but not necessarily at the same moment. So, I have always assumed that a character with good reflections would be able to shift and dance around the flames. Maybe come out with scorched hair and a little ash on the clothes, but nothing damaging. After all, a 5 x 5 square is a lot of room to move about it. I see no reason why you couldn;t do the same flying.

iwatt · Sep 17, 2003

DM2 said:
He reacts before he is consciously aware of the danger, folding wings and dropping a few feet like a stone while pulling his cloak over his face and neck, avoiding all but the fringes of the blast....

Or anything else you can think of.

Evasion...so he's evading the blast to some degree. It is tough to imagine how though, since the rogue never actually leavs his 5' spot while evading it. Then again, combat is imperfectly modeled by turn-based actions anyway, so turning a blind eye to what would seem a logical problem with him evading it is usually a good idea.

DM2

I have no problem mechanic-wise (i.e. allows a soft character to survive, with an abilty long associated to his class...quick reflexes). My question was one of description. When the mage player asks mne how the hell he avoided an instantenous effect, I want to be able to explain it.

fett527 · Sep 17, 2003

Sorry, I couldn't get back to this sooner, I'm at work. The question came while discussing things in this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63899 (Which came from another thread on Evard's Black Tentacles). To explan kind of where the question originated from, why if you are grappled do you lose your dex bonus to AC but not to your reflex save? Why if you are flat-footed do you lose your dex bonus to AC but not to your reflex save? Why if you wear armor do you lose some or all of your dex bonus to AC (max dex bonus) and take negatives on dex based skills (armor check penalty) but not to your reflex save? I hope that clears up the question.