Astral Deva character concerns

We are starting a new campaign soon with 5th level characters. I flipped through Savage Species to look for something interesting since none of us have tried a monstrous character yet. The astral deva looks really cool, but I'm afraid it will be unbalanced, especially when you see all the stat increases and spell like abilities. Even with the downsides (less hit dice, poor saves, etc.) it still looks very powerful.

The last thing I want to do is cause enmity with the other players because I have a "special" character that gets a lot of spotlight time and overshadows others abilities. I could see this happening: fellow melee-heavy paladin hacks at an opponent and misses, while fellow wizard tries dispelling an effect and fails his caster level check. Astral deva attacks and hits with big damage, then next round successfully dispels the effect. That sure will make the other party members feel useless.

I can see how things slow down as the higher levels are reached, where spell-like abilities fade in usefulness because the hit dice don't keep up and that's what the caster level uses. However, for many levels in between he appears to be quite powerful and, since we have a large 6-person party which will probably advance slowly, that could last us a long time.

Before you ask, yes, I'm asking for opinions on this with my fellow gamers, but I thought I'd ask here if others have experience with an astral deva in play.

Comments?

Why, yes, actually.

Kershek said:

We are starting a new campaign soon with 5th level characters.

Click to expand...

While I'm not familiar with Savage Species (I make it a point not to buy WotC books that aren't SRD-bound), the stock Astral Deva in the 3.5 MM is a 20th level charcter (12 HD & +8 LA). I suspect that an Astral Deva would be horrendiously underpowered to fit in with 5th level PCs.

Kershek said:

Before you ask, yes, I'm asking for opinions on this with my fellow gamers, but I thought I'd ask here if others have experience with an astral deva in play.

Click to expand...

Actually, I do have experience with a 3.0 Astral Deva in play, It was a high-level game, and the Astral Deva fit in fairly well--aside from his near-dominance of the game as he had, at the time, "Quicken Spell-like ability (Holy Smite.)"

I'd be hesitant to allow an Astral Deva--or any Outsider--with anything less than a 10th level party. But if you care to elaborate on what Savage Species says, I'd offer my commentary on it.

Yes, I can elaborate. I wrote something up about it to the players, so I'll just copy it here:

Here is about what he'd look like at 5th level:

Astral deva: ECL 5; Size M; HD 5d8+15; hp 43; Init +4; Spd 50 ft (base 50 ft), 50 ft fly (average); AC 19 (+4 dex, +5 nat), touch 14, FF 19; BAB +5; Atk: +9 melee (2d6+7 Greatsword +1), +8 melee (1d8+4 slam) +10 ranged (1d8+3/crit x3, Longbow, mighty (+3 Str) composite MW); AL LG; SV Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +5; Str 16, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 18.
Languages spoken: Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Common
Skill points: 72, Feats: 2

Class Features:
Low light vision, darkvision, +4 listen and spot, +4 fort against poison.
2nd level: Uncanny Dodge (never flat-footed) (Ex).
3rd level: Immunities (Ex): Immune to electricity and petrification.
3rd level: Lesser Deva Powers 1/day (Sp): cure light wounds, aid, continual flame, detect evil, dispel magic, invisibility sphere centered on self only), remove curse, remove disease, remove fear, and see invisibility. Caster level = hit dice. Save = DC 10 + spell level + Cha modifier.
4th level: Fly 50 ft (average).
4th level: Tongues (Su): Can speak with any creature that has a language. Always on or can be disabled as a free action.
5th level: Protective Aura (Su): As a free action, it can surround itself with a nimbus of light having a radius of 20 feet. This light acts as a magic circle against evil (but providing +4 bonuses instead of +2 bonuses). Caster level = hit dice.

Beyond 5th level:
The astral deva gets a lot of things as it progresses in level: ability increases in all but dex, more spell like abilities and the ability to cast them more often, more resistances and immunities, better flying, more natural armor, DR 10/magic, and more.

The opportunity cost seems low for all of these powers, but it is deceptive.
o No proficiency in any armor or shields.
o Starting at 4th level, the saves change from all good to all poor (instead of increasing every other level they increase every 3rd level).
o Starting at 5th level, BAB increases slow down to every other level
o Starting at 5th level, skill point acquisition slows down to every other level.
o Starting at 5th level, hit dice acquisition slows down to every other level, so a 20th level deva only has 12 hit dice.
o Spell-like ability is reduce in effectiveness as levels increase because they are tied to hit dice. For instance dispel magic only has a caster level of 7 at 10th level, and 12 at 20th level.
o Only 5 feats instead of 7, acquired more slowly (1st, 3rd, 7th, 13th, and 19th).
o Only 3 character ability increases instead of 5, at 4th, 11th, and 19th level.
o Bringing back from death requires at least a limited wish.
o Development is pretty much on a set path with little available character customization options.

At 20th level, the astral deva is certainly a powerful character. He has the following inherent ability increases: +12 str, +8 con, +8 int, +8 wis, +12 cha, and +15 natural armor. However, a lot of his special abilities are tied to these stats and need to be high to keep up with the increasing saving throws of tougher monsters. The natural armor is needed because of his inability to wear armor. The increase in con is needed since he only ends up with 12 hit dice at 20th level. The increase in strength is needed for the same reason. As with anything else, there's good and bad.

Another possibility for strife is how the astral deva would deal with a rogue in the party. A chaotic neutral rogue. Where a paladin could look the other way with certain things, an astral deva would probably be more apt to call the rogue on anything he saw was a fault.

Not to hijack, but they also get some DEX, up to +8. Also, they do not become large and their resistances are messed up. Just check and make sure everything is correct.

Gariig

According to Savage Species p.155, they get no dex increases and they become large at 19th level. They get resistances at lower level and immunities at higher level. I could find no errata for the book.

Don't worry about it. In my "City of the Spider Queen" game, all the characters are monster classess out of Savage Species except one. The one "regular" adventurer almost always outshines the others.

My group started at 10th level, and 10 class levels are better than 10 monster levels any day. I don't think being 5th level would change that much.

My thoughts.

Kershek said:

Here is about what he'd look like at 5th level:

Click to expand...

He feels a bit too front-loaded at 5th level--five hit dice, +5 BAB, and loads of special abilities. But D&D tends to be front-loaded, and your advancement chances aren't very high.

Kershek said:

Another possibility for strife is how the astral deva would deal with a rogue in the party. A chaotic neutral rogue. Where a paladin could look the other way with certain things, an astral deva would probably be more apt to call the rogue on anything he saw was a fault.

Click to expand...

Angels/Celestials aren't lawyers. They have a tendency to confront evil wherever they see it, but they also should be willing to forgive--especially if the evil is slight and done against another evil.

Plus, IME, inter-party strife isn't always a bad thing. As long as there's something else to congeal the party, it should just make for a more-fun game.

A good way to balance Angels, IMO (I'm going to incorprorate it into my full-fledged angel rules, once I finally get them fleshed out more) is to require specific commands. While it's generally bad to balance rules with RP, angels are probably a good exception--no one wants to be a special-ability less monk when all of the angel's celestial abilitys are taken away for violating divine writ.

Barendd, thanks for the response; that's good to know. Not all monster classes are created equal, though, even if they have attempted to be balanced

I just found out the rogue is CN and will be going to Arcane Trickster. I don't think this is going to work out too well at this point, hmm.... Still looking for personal experiences, though.

Monster classes almost never outshine regular classes, as has already been mentioned. Especially given the fact that your fellow PCs will be taking levels in PrCs. If you want to play this character, particularly if you are not going to get anything other than Astral Deva levels , the only problem you will face is being underpowered compared to the other PCs.