Blindsight plus darkness -- unsalvageably broken?

Okay. The spell Blindsight (from Magic of Faerun) grants blindsight to a cleric for one hour/level, at a cost of a 4th-level slot. This spell grants benefits roughly equivalent to those granted by True Seeing, a fifth-level spell, if the spell's subject closes her eyes. There are two major differences:
1) Blindsight only works within a 30' radius
2) Blindsight works on nonmagically concealed features.

And, of course, blindsight lasts 60 times longer than True Seeing.

Darkness last 10 minutes/level and is a second level spell; it essentially grants improved invisibility to everyone within the spell's radius. Of course, a PC with blindsight on can "see" through the darkness. And this improved invisibility lasts ten times as long.

So, for a second-level spell and a fourth-level spell, a PC gains benefits equivalent to those granted by a fourth-level spell and a fifth-level spell, with both spells increased drastically in duration.

Is this analysis correct? If so, how should it be fixed?

At this point, I'm leaning heavily toward removing blindsight from the spell list. Since it's been used once, however, I'd rather just find a way to nerf it. Ideas:

1) Blindsight is fooled by illusion magic
2) The vision granted by Blindsight is blocked by magical darkness.
3) The vision granted by blindsight is blocked by opaque objects.
4) Blindsight's duration is reduced to 1 minute/level.

What do you guys think? These restrictions might make blindsight no better than darkvision, a second-level spell. Maybe if I remove #2 it'd be okay? In this case, it still (when combined with darkness) grants improved invisibility to the spell's subject, but it grants it for a similar duration and at a higher spell cost, and doesn't provide all the additional benefits.

Feedback would be great!
Daniel

Well if you are a cleric adventuring by yourself, this combination is all well and good. However, I think you party members w/o Blindsight will be slightly disgruntled if you are running around with Darkness.

Also, if you are an NPC/Monster and see a big globe of Darkness running towards you, then you are just asking for a Dispel Magic.

IMO, a more broken combo is Ghosform and Improved Invisibility.

Part of the problem is, that Darkness is very powerful!

Even the lowest Darkness spell fools Darkvision, which does not rely on light!

Blindsight should not be able to see through any surfaces (opaque or not), since it is much like a bat's ultrasonic sight. So your restriction #3 is actually in effect already.

Remember also, that Blindsight has a 30' range only, Darkvision however grants a 60' range of vision!

Bye
Thanee

gfunk said:

Well if you are a cleric adventuring by yourself, this combination is all well and good. However, I think you party members w/o Blindsight will be slightly disgruntled if you are running around with Darkness.

Also, if you are an NPC/Monster and see a big globe of Darkness running towards you, then you are just asking for a Dispel Magic.

IMO, a more broken combo is Ghosform and Improved Invisibility.

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Well, the party members may be disgruntled -- unless you go in front of the party. You blind the enemies, so they have trouble dealing with the partymembers in back; they also have trouble dealing with you.

And not all enemies have dispel magic handy.

A player did this tactic in a recent session, and it completely overwhelmed the enemy. Very, very sad.

And Thanee, some people interpret Blindsight as not being blocked by opaque barriers; the spell doesn't specify how it works, so this is a reasonable interpretation. Unfortunately, it makes the spell even more horrible.
Daniel

I think that opaque barriers should protect from Blindsight if you envision Blindsight as being 'ultrasonic' in nature (like a bat's)

For Blindsight that depends on preternaturally sharp senses of hearing and/or smell (like a Grimlock's) barriers won't work, but strong masking odours and silence should (I would allow a Move Silently check opposed by the Grimlock's Listen check at +20 to effectively be 'invisible' to the Grimlock's hearing, although it could still partially locate the character by scent.)

So IMHO it depends on how you envision Blindsight working, mechanically, as to whether you allow an 'out' from it.

I won't mention that having Blindsight as a spell accessible to (all) clerics just reinforces my view of the FRCS as a (controversial - deleted)'s paradise ^_^

Tremorsense only works for corporeal creatures in contact with the ground, but won't be fooled by barriers. Still, a simple levitate spell makes a character completely invisible to Tremorsense.

Malin Genie said:

So IMHO it depends on how you envision Blindsight working, mechanically, as to whether you allow an 'out' from it.

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Well, at this point, I'm not interested in starting with a mechanism for Blindsight and figuring out the mechanism's implications: I want to figure out a balanced set of effects for the spell, and then I'll rationalize them later. Blindsight is, I think, too powerful.

Especially considering that for druids it's a third-level spell. A druid who's friends with a darkness-casting cleric becomes nasty at fifth level, rather than at seventh level.

Especially if the druid is smart, and casts blindsight on the party rogue rather than on himself. Constant sneak attacks and improved invisibility and True Seeing for 10 minutes/level, as a fifth-level PC.

Daniel

That's not broken....

For a first level spell, minor image, I can make the illusion of a globe of darkness, and automatically disbelieve it.

Wippit Guud said:

That's not broken....

For a first level spell, minor image, I can make the illusion of a globe of darkness, and automatically disbelieve it.

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Even if you're fortunate enough to have the kind of cracksmoking DM who would allow this (I'm assuming you mean the first-level spell silent image, not the second-level spell minor image, and the spell allows an illusion of an "object, creature, or force," none of which seem to cover the darkness spell), the spell ends as soon as you quit concentrating, making it nowhere near as useful.

Anyway, I wouldn't allow this either, and I'm looking for ideas on nerfing blindsight, not ways to duplicate this effect at lower levels .

Daniel

As a fairly minor nerf you might consider lowering the duration, casting a spell that lasts all day is a lot easier call than casting a spell that lasts for only one maybe two combats.

yoink