[EN World Book Club] Tigana Discussion [October Selection]

Going to be a little busy this afternoon and evening, but I wanted to get the discussion started on Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay.

I chose the book because I recently read Sailing to Sarantium by Kay, and wanted to read more of his works. Tigana fit the bill for the EN World Book Club, being a stand-alone novel. Also, the advice of many others in these forums, including in the Suggestions and Selectors thread, convinced me that I would enjoy this book.

• How about you? Did you like it, or not? Why?
• Have you read anything else by Kay? How does Tigana compare? Will you read more of his works now?
• There was mention in another thread of statting out characters in D&D terms. While I am not big on that, I did note that the book contains many of the elements that I enjoy in a fantasy RPG campaign: low magic, nice mix of combat and "role-playing", an overarching meta-plot that leaves room for individual characters' motivations and goals, and opportunity for the main characters to affect the world around them. Agree or disagree, and why?
• Do you have a favorite character from the book, and if so why? I am not sure any of them could be deemed my favorite, but Dianora certainly surprised me. When the focus shifted to her in Part Two I was disappointed at first. I had become so caught up in the other characters, and it seemed that the plot was just coming together, so I wanted to see what happened next. But she is such a fascinating character, with deep inner conflict that is very believable, and her section of the book did a nice job of bringing us crucial background information on some of the other characters.

That is all I am going to say for now. I will check back in either late tonight or some time tomorrow to see where the discussion has gone.

Finally, if you did not have the opportunity to read from the 10th Anniversary edition of the book you may want to take a look at the afterward by the author: http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/tiganaafterword.htm
Poke around the Bright Weavings sight for more info on the author and his many works. I found the sight while reading Sailing to Sarantium, and it helped guide my decision to read Tigana.

I have about 150 pages left to read. So far I am REALLY liking this book.

More later...

I enjoyed this book, much more so than Dragondoom. This book was a quick page turner for me, even on my limited time budget. It has been quite some time since I last read any of Kay's works...a decade at least. I know that I hadn't read Tigana before, but I had enjoyed his other works.

I found the whole concept of forcing a culture from current memory intriguing...especially in light of the 10th anniversary afterward.

My favorite character in the book was Devin. Throughout the novel you could see him evolve and mature.

I enjoyed the turmoil of Dianora. She had fallen in love with someone she had pledged to destroy.

I'll stop here for now, as I don't want to give to many spoilers out for those that are still finishing.

Okay, simple levels.

I first read Tigana about a year after if was published.

It singlehandedly restored my faith in fantasy literature.

Between A Wizard of Earthsea and Tigana I cannot think of a single fantasy book I enjoyed. There are still very, very few today. Don't talk to me about Brooks, Jordan or Salvatore; give me Kay, de Lint, and LeGuin.

Kay's characters are real. They breath, they live, they thirst, they cry; they even die. Each one of them, hero or villain, is a true individual, not merely a collection of words. They move across a landscape that has depth, history, and a richness that few can equal.

I love the blue wine. I love the five duchies. I love the Not Quite Europe feel, a sense he has extended and deepened in Song for Arbonne and more fully in Lions of al-Rassan, the only book that has made me cry all three times I have read it.

Kay is a writer, a true writer, not someone who puts words on a page, but someone who makes language sore, sing, and take form.

There are few such authors in the world.

I wish, in addition to his novels of Not Italy, Not France, Not Spain, and Not Byzantium, that he would tackle Not Kievan Russia. Then my hopes would be complete.

I read Tigana about six months ago.

I adored it. Its langauge is subtly beautiful and haunting, the plot is well written and unpredictable, and the world and characters are believable and engaging.

It's also one of the best books about loss, conflicted motives, passion and pain I have ever read.

I find it very had to choose a favorite character, since they're all interesting, but I was engaged most of all by Alessan, Dianora, and especially Brandin.

Brandin did some horrible things, but I found him deeply sympathetic, understanding his motives and respecting them while simultanously understanding and respecting those of his enemies. How many stories make you care for both the hero and the villain, hoping that in some way neither of them will lose?

Most noves that try to create sympathetic antagonists do so by creating some arbitrary conflict (good and bad sides fighting, with the bad side winning), or by a good element tacked on to his base evilnness ("he's a murderer and tyrant, but he loves puppies and treats his mother well"). Kay avoids both these traps with Brandin.

Brandin, and by extension, Kay, also understands power. Power isn't about going to other and forcing your wishes on them, it's about making others have to come to you, and want to do your wishes. The ballroom scene is a perfect example of this. Conversely, Alberico doesn't understand power at all.

WARNING - THERE ARE SOME SPOILERS BELOW. IF YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED TIGANA, STOP READING NOW!

JoeBlank said:

• How about you? Did you like it, or not? Why?
• Have you read anything else by Kay? How does Tigana compare? Will you read more of his works now?

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I think we've beaten up on Dragondoom enough, but I can't say enough how much of a contrast in quality Tigana was to the last selection of this book club.

I loved Tigana. I was very glad when JoeBlank selected it for this month's discussion. Kay is an author that I have always tremendously enjoyed. The strange thing is, for someone who has always delivered, I don't search out his other works. I'm going to change that by putting his books that I haven't read, A Song for Arbonne and The Lions of Al-Rassan on my reading list.

I've read The Fionavar Trilogy (and loved the way he subtely weaved it into the mythos of Tigana as the "true world"). The Sarantine Mosaic was also excellent.

Kay does a great job of creating these quasi-historical settings and bringing them to life. I am not a great student of history, but Kay brings these worlds out in a compelling fashion and provides a rich background for the story to develop. In all of his novels, the geography and history become a huge part of the story.

Tigana was a book that I really enjoyed reading. I mean, I enjoyed the act of reading it. Many books are good books and are good reads because you want to see how the story progresses. In Tigana, I liked reading it just to see what was written. His phrasing and simple use of word structures was wonderful. The last time I remember enjoying the act of reading so much was with some Hemmingway books. I'm a bit pressed for time this morning, but when I get some time I will post some short excerpts that highlight this point.

JoeBlank said:

• There was mention in another thread of statting out characters in D&D terms. While I am not big on that, I did note that the book contains many of the elements that I enjoy in a fantasy RPG campaign: low magic, nice mix of combat and "role-playing", an overarching meta-plot that leaves room for individual characters' motivations and goals, and opportunity for the main characters to affect the world around them. Agree or disagree, and why?

Click to expand...

I'm not a huge fan of forcing all stories and characters into a D&D mold. There are stories and setting that just don't lend themselves well to D&D or d20. Besides, I don't want to be sub-consiously converting story elements into D&D terms while reading a book. I'd much rather try to enjoy the book as the author intended.

JoeBlank said:

• Do you have a favorite character from the book, and if so why? I am not sure any of them could be deemed my favorite, but Dianora certainly surprised me. When the focus shifted to her in Part Two I was disappointed at first. I had become so caught up in the other characters, and it seemed that the plot was just coming together, so I wanted to see what happened next. But she is such a fascinating character, with deep inner conflict that is very believable, and her section of the book did a nice job of bringing us crucial background information on some of the other characters.

Click to expand...

Dinaora is an interesting character. I started off pitying her, then my opinion of her changed and I view her as someone who was a traitor. I saw her as someone who abandoned her ideals and goal; as someone who justified her abondonment as just never having the right opportunity yet. Towards the end I started to admire her. I suppose that coincided somewhat with Kay's humanization of Brandin.
I really liked Baerd and Alessan. I don't really have anything negative to say about them. I found them compelling characters and thought you could feel the pain within their hearts over the loss of their homeland. I thought that was most evident when Alessan bound Erlein to his service. The loss of Erlein's freedom was abhorrent (both to me as a reader, and to Alessan), but the act itself, along with Alessan's pain, futher explained the hole in these men's hearts at the loss of Tigana.
Devin was a great character, though he didn't seem as compelling as Baerd and Allessan. Perhaps that is because Kay is using him as a main narrative force in the story. I would have like to hear more about Catriana, Sandre and Marius, but I suppose that is the mark of a good story. You always want to know more about the characters.

JoeBlank said:

Finally, if you did not have the opportunity to read from the 10th Anniversary edition of the book you may want to take a look at the afterward by the author: http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/tiganaafterword.htm

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Great website. I didn't know about it until today. Thanks for the link!

In both the Sarantine Mosaic and Tigana, Kay makes the life of an artisan a key focus of the story. In the Sarantine Mosaic, the main character was an artist who created mosaics in temples and palaces. In Tigana, they are musicians. In each area he brings an incredible amount of detail to the story, creating a very immersive environment. In Tigana there were a couple of points where I wished I could have heard Devin singing, as the description was so incredible. Anyone share this thought?

Another question I have for people is: How did Tigana make you feel? It's a great story, but more than that, what did it make you think? I found the communal ache of the main characters at the loss of their homeland and thier history striking. Futher, I think that it was actually the loss of the history that was more painful than the loss of the homeland itself. Their actions and dialoge makes me think that they are more upset at the general inability of people to realize what Tigana was than at the fact that it is no more. Do you agree? Disagree? Did you come away with a different feeling?

I am a huge, huge Guy Gavriel Kay fan. I've met him twice, once before Tigana was released and he was reading a selection from it at the University of Waterloo. I was able to spend 45 minutes with him, just the two us, discussing mythology and Fionavar. He is an amazingly intelligent man with an almost encyclopaedic knowledge of myth and culture. He puts an incredible amount of research into his novels and it shows. I have every one of his books, except for the newly released book of poetry (I never read it, though I may go and buy it in order to have something for him to sign next time). I have every book from Tigana to Lord of Emperors in hard cover and signed.

I am a freak.

So, basically that's a long-winded way of saying that what I write below is as an unabashed admirer of the man and his work.

JoeBlank said:

Going to be a little busy this afternoon and evening, but I wanted to get the discussion started on Tigana by Guy Gavriel Kay.

I chose the book because I recently read Sailing to Sarantium by Kay, and wanted to read more of his works. Tigana fit the bill for the EN World Book Club, being a stand-alone novel. Also, the advice of many others in these forums, including in the Suggestions and Selectors thread, convinced me that I would enjoy this book.

• How about you? Did you like it, or not? Why?

Click to expand...

• 
  
  I loved it. I have to admit, that I usually end up considering the last Kay book I've read to be my favourite. Now, though, I have to say that "the Sarantine Mosaic" is my all-time favourite. That is not to denigrate Tigana. What an accomplishment! Considering it is almost diametrically opposed to "the Fionavar Tapestry" (which was very high-magic, traditional Tolkien-esque fantasy, though without the usual cookie cutter approach and applying the Arthurian and Celtic mythos in the story). His skill with characters was evident in the Tapestry, but I remember reading Tigana for the first time (the year it came out) and being totally blown away. Nothing new in fantasy has ever had that effect on me again, so this remains a favourite both for stylistic and nostalgic reasons. Kay single-handedly proved to me (in university and getting snobbish at the time) that fantasy could produce literature, real literature, the kind that doesn't need to excuse its rough usage, transparent plots and stereotypical characters behind the curtain of 'escapism.'
  
  Long story short: loved it! Still do!
  
  

  JoeBlank said:

  [*]Have you read anything else by Kay? How does Tigana compare? Will you read more of his works now?

  Click to expand...

  
  I've read just about everything (save for his book of poetry) he's written or edited (he helped Christopher Tolkien compile and edit the Silmarillion. Check out the foreward which refers to Guy Kay). I've never been disappointed. He's at work now on a new book, I believe based on the friction between Anglo-Saxon and Celtic cultures in a pseduo-Europe. Don't quote me on that, just going by memory.
  
  

  JoeBlank said:

  [*]There was mention in another thread of statting out characters in D&D terms. While I am not big on that, I did note that the book contains many of the elements that I enjoy in a fantasy RPG campaign: low magic, nice mix of combat and "role-playing", an overarching meta-plot that leaves room for individual characters' motivations and goals, and opportunity for the main characters to affect the world around them. Agree or disagree, and why?

  Click to expand...

  
  I think Tigana spurns being fit into RPG stats because it is far too real. To call Alessan simply a fighter/bard or something would be a disservice to his unique character and abilities.
  
  But, yes, Tigana delivers on everything I want out of a book. Not only is this a completely realized setting, the characters are real, very real, with real emotions, motivations far below the surface that they might not even be aware of and they do not act in accordance with some 'script' but act as I would expect real people to act. Kay's dialogue is crisp and resonant. His narrative and descriptions are almost poetic. Yes, we have bashed the heck out of Dragondoom, but that kind of writing left me cold even in high school. I saw the man behind the curtain pulling all the levers, trying to make me believe in this other era. Kay's effortless prose has the same inner music as his settings and his characters. He does not need artificial devices--like rude and rough pseudo-Elizabethan prose--to transport the reader to a different time and place. It is as natural as it is wonderful.
  
  

  JoeBlank said:

  [*]Do you have a favorite character from the book, and if so why? I am not sure any of them could be deemed my favorite, but Dianora certainly surprised me. When the focus shifted to her in Part Two I was disappointed at first. I had become so caught up in the other characters, and it seemed that the plot was just coming together, so I wanted to see what happened next. But she is such a fascinating character, with deep inner conflict that is very believable, and her section of the book did a nice job of bringing us crucial background information on some of the other characters.

  Click to expand...

It's so hard because all the characters are great, even the minor ones. I have always been amazed at the characterization of the villains. They are so human, so understandable. Yes, they are villains in the sense that they oppose the quest of the protagonists, but they are no villains in the 'Evil Overlord' sense. Even Alberico, while extremely self-centred and brutal, is not one-dimensional. He has a goal that is all too understandable. Power. He wants it for power's sake, as Brandin points out, and not for any goal he can apply that power to reach. In short, he's a politician or a CEO in the modern world. They surround us in our daily lives, so we understand them well.

However, my favourite character is Sandre. I love the fact that he is as ruthless as the villains (letting his own son die) at the outset, locked in his own world of scheming and revenge, but comes to understand Alessan and Baerd's conviction of freeing all of the Palm. I found his actions in regards to a certain episode with Catriana (don't want to spoil it for anyone, it comes near the end) understandable and perhaps an act of contrition for allowing his own son to die. I wish we had seen more of him. There are snippets of how his paternal affection for Catriana grows, but I wish we could have seen more. Heck, I would've been happy with Tigana as a trilogy, but I also think that Mr. Kay knows better than I what was necessary for his work to be complete.

JoeBlank said:

That is all I am going to say for now. I will check back in either late tonight or some time tomorrow to see where the discussion has gone.

Finally, if you did not have the opportunity to read from the 10th Anniversary edition of the book you may want to take a look at the afterward by the author: http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/tiganaafterword.htm
Poke around the Bright Weavings sight for more info on the author and his many works. I found the sight while reading Sailing to Sarantium, and it helped guide my decision to read Tigana.

Click to expand...

Bright Weavings is a great website, one I found a few years ago and one I regularly visit (though not as regular as my visits to E.N. World, long may it reign!). It has a wealth of resources, including further readings for people interested in the periods and places on which Kay's books are based.

I'm really glad that we were able to look at Tigana. I think I need to re-read all my Kay books. Every one of them is great. Heck, one could pretty much have a Kay Book Club, endlessly re-reading and discussing his books. Okay, maybe that's a bit of hyperbole. Still, I would highly recommend everyone take the time to read the rest of Mr. Kay's books. Personally, they are my favourite fantasy works, bar none (including Tolkien), These are the books I'd take if I was lost on a desert island, without even the Skipper and Gilligan.

Take care all

Well, I loved Tigana. I've read a lot of fantasy over the years, including a lot of crap, and Tigana is amongst the best I've read.

I haven't read anything else by Kay (except the Silmarillion which he contributed to), but now I will. Although I don't think I could read too much of him at once - I think it would be too draining.

That's not a negative. I found the ending to be wonderful, but in no way did it make me feel that all was better. Of course, if everything had worked out perfectly, it wouldn't have been as wonderful a story.

It was me that mentioned looking at books in D&D terms. I don't want to do this endlessly, and I don't think everything can fit in D&D terms. But I did wonder, as a DM, what spell I would use to explain the wiping of Tigana's name from memory - the only thing I could think of was wish, which I think is too "lame" a spell, as it could answer almost any difficult spell question.

I'm not sure I can answer as to a favourite character. Devin was obviously a prime character, as his lack of knowledge of the world, and Tigana, was used as a method to explain the situation to the readers. Others, such as Alessan are also extremely important to the story.

But probably the character that interested me the most, that I would have liked to have seen more of, was Sandre's son. We saw into some of his mind and experiences; the act he fooled the world with, the true motivations, his relationship with his father.

Anyway, that's probably enough from me. I look forward to the next selection.

Duncan

I have to add to the chorus of people saying that Tigana is a great book by a great author. The characterization is outstanding and there are so many moving moments that just rip your heart out.

Unfortuantely, I actually haven't read the book in a few years (I stumbled upon this thread), so I am a little short on specifics. However the one touching moment that comes to mind is when a man is beaten on the streets of Tigana by his opressors and cries out the name of his land in defiance, but only those who were native born and old enough could even hear him.

Tigana and Song for Arbonne rank up among my favorite books of all time. I also really enjoyed the Fionovar Tapestry, though that series had a bit of a different flavor than the others (it is more like traditional fantasy lit than Kay's other books). I found his other works to be extremely good, but not quite to the same level as these.

The one hit on Kay's writing I could make, is that the prose is fairly dense. Whenever I start reading his books, it takes quite a while before I get into a rhythm and start to have any idea what the heck is going on. Once it clicks, the books are massively enjoyable, but I do know some people who read Kay for the first time and were not willing to stick with it. Their loss.

So cool! I love Tigana. I can't offer specific praise because it's been a number of years since I've read it. But Kay is a great author. A Song for Arbonne was the first I read of his. The Lions of Al-Rassan is also an excellent book. Couldn't say which of his books is my favorite, though it might be Tigana.

My only complaint with Kay's writing is that he gets a little graphic with the sex at times. Call me a prude, but I rarely find it necessary.

Regardless, though, it's an excellent book. Very unique story.