Mechanic-Nerfed Cloak of Elvenkind (etc.)

The changes in 1e magic items, in 3e and on into 3.5, are caused by two things:

1) The lack of skills in AD&D,

and

2) The false assumption that magic items which grant an affect already covered by a skill are skill-boosting items.

Now, while this has already been brought up in another thread (http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1219762#post1219762), which focussed on jumping, I will use the Cloak of Elvenkind as an example, here...

Originally, the Cloak of Elvenkind gave, at worst, a 95% chance of being unspotted, as long as you were in natural surroundings, and were moving slowly (walking or slower). In 3e, this became a +10 Stealth items. In 3.5, it has been "nerfed" to a +5 Stealth item, and many folks are unhappy with the changes... The same is true for many "skill-booster items".

Now the first thing to remember is, that in 1e, no one but the Thief had any skills, thus, there were (almost) no "Skill Toes" to be stepped on! No one (except maybe the Thief, if he didn't get the cloak) cared if a Cloak gave you a 95% chance of being "invisible", under certain conditions, as there was NO other way to do it, besides magic!

In 3e+, of course, you now have a Hide skill, and characters who put points into it. Thus, the obvious way to bring the Elven Cloak straight across (+19 Hide) is a poor choice, as an average character (with +2 stat bonus) would need to be 14th level (and have Hide as a Class skill - and that maxed!) to have this degree of skill. Having your character's best skill "nerfed" because someone else has a magic item is no fun...

So the 3e version became +10, "nerfed" to +5 in 3.5e...

But I maintain that this was a mistake! Here's why:

The cloak never granted the Hide skill, originally. There was no Hide skill, but that's beside the point! Instead, it (basically) made you unspottable except on the roll of a natural 20, but ONLY when in natural surroundings, AND when moving slowly... When indoors, in a dungeon, in combat (and thus moving quickly), or running, etc., it added NOTHING to any form of stealth!

Thus, it was its own affect, and had its own, built-in restrictions on use. It was not a "skill-booster". It did not add to the (non-existant) stealth skill, at all!

In other words, IMHO, 3.xe has it wrong. The Cloaks don't boost skill, and their price shouldn't be related to levels of Hide, at all!

This is different from a Ring of Jumping, for example, where the effects are directly tied to a skill... The Jump spell should be limited to a maximum boost of +3+1/Caster Level (as should any skill-boosting spell). Otherwise, magic-using characters greatly overshadow those without spells.

Obviously, a Cloak of Invisibility is better than a Cloak of Elvenkind. Yet compare the price of a +19 skill-adder to the Cloak of Invisibility... 36,100 GP vs. 12,000?

Seems to me that the best thing to have done would have been to NOT make the Cloak of Elvenkind a skill-booster item. It could work as making the character Camouflaged in natural surroundings (only), requiring a roll of a natural 20 to spot, or a succesful Spot check on a roll of 10+, otherwise, but doesn't function when moving at more than walking speed, nor in combat... Now the cloak doesn't "nerf" high Stealth skill, is useful to someone with or without it (in the proper circumstances), and does what it was originally supposed to do.

For skill-booster items, I don't think they should give more than a +3+1/level boost to any skill, with Cross-Class skills getting 1/2 that, rounded down (+5 skill boosters give Cross-Class skills +2, for instance). That way, the Rogue's 13 Ranks in Jump still mean something.

Same goes for the Jump spell, etc. They grant the magical equivalent of having the skill maxed out, as a Class skill, with the maximum based on your Caster Level... Thus, a 15th level Wizard gets +18, while a F5/W5/R5 gets +8, instead.

Okay, opinions will vary. This will "semi-nerf" many items and spells, until you rise to the level where you can can use a bonus as high as the items previously gave. Some people will like that, others hate it. It would prevent someone who had spent the time and effort to max Ranks in a skill from being nerfed by an item, however...

What are your thoughts?

your point being?

whoa - if yer gonna split out that subtle and involved of point, you gotta give some depth and background to help people understand the context better...

The first edition cloak was also a lot mor ecomlicated to use. The simplification of the rules was on of the design goals of third edition.

I think the real problem is not how it is defined in the rules, but how one sees the powers of the cloak working. I'm fine with the +10 Hide or even the +5 version.

Crothian said:

I think the real problem is not how it is defined in the rules, but how one sees the powers of the cloak working. I'm fine with the +10 Hide or even the +5 version.

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The +10 version, which does not work without concealment or cover (as it is based upon the Hide skill) costs 10,000 GP, while a Cloak of Invisibility (which works anywhere) costs only 12,000. For the original +19 version, it costs much more...

Not nerfing the PCs' best skills is good, but magic items should return value for their price, as well. Hide skill-boosters are always worth less than Invisibility.

Steverooo said:

Hide skill-boosters are always worth less than Invisibility.

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You can hide while invisible, in case of creatures/characters with see invisibility; you can be spotted (via indirect tells) while invisible.

CRGreathouse said:

You can hide while invisible, in case of creatures/characters with see invisibility; you can be spotted (via indirect tells) while invisible.

Click to expand...

Exactly, in 3.0 there was a spot DC 20 to notice an invisible persons presence, kinda like Predator. So you can also hide in 3.0 as a back-up. In 3.5 it's +20 while moving, +40 while not moving to the hide chance. Of course, see invisibility negates that.

What you are trying to do is make items like they were in first edition, if you want those items, go play first edition. The ENTIRE SYSTEM of play is different.
For example, the jump skill in second ed, you simply roll your strength or lower, then you can jump 1d6 feet per level. Making someone with high strength an AWESOME jumper, while someone with a 10 having only a 50% chance to make any serious sort of jump, rediculous.

Calrin Alshaw

It's more than that: The +19 version is STILL less than the original version under the same conditions, because the original 95% version didn't have an opposed detection mechanism. +19, therefore, retains its effect only against Joe Average, the L1 commoner of flat average 10 stats and and 0 ranks in spot. Against someone with actual spot ranks, even a few, the effectiveness of even the +19 version drops rapidly.

To make matters more complicated, the +19 version would, similarly, tread on a lot of skill toes, for an entirely different reason: It's not because previously, only the thief had skill toes to be stepped on. It's because previously, a thief could focus all of his thief skill points on mastering the art of hiding, before concerning himself with any other abilities: Thus, a thief could become a master hider, if bad at everything else, early on. 3E, however, sets a maximum of how much can be plowed into a single skill: This *FORCES* the thief, now rogue, to spread out a ton of points, even if he'd much rather focus on getting one thing right first. So what you have instead is the low-to-mid level thief being incompetent at all things, whereas by high level, you're good at everything still.

This, of course, is the source of the toe stompage: Even the 3.0E +10 Hide version, or even a +19 version, wouldn't stomp on anyone's toes if the aspiring thief could advance his mastery of hiding at the expense of anything else, thus equalling the ability of some fool with a spiffy cloak to hide.

To add some weird numbers to this mix:

If as a spell caster, I want to craft a "camouflage item" which emulates the first edition Elvencloak, I have a few options depending on the DM:

1) Spend 18050 GP to craft a +19 Hide Cloak of Elvenkind (skill level squared * 50 GP craft cost).

2) Spend 12000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 2 spell has minutes duration).

3) Spend 24000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 4 spell has rounds duration if the recipient disrupts it).

4) Spend 112,000 GP to craft a Cloak of Invisibility (SL 4 Greater Invisibility * CL 7 * 1000 GP craft cost * 4 spell has rounds duration).

5) Spend 42050 GP to craft a +19 Hide (skill level squared * 50 GP craft cost) combined with a continuous Blur (SL 2 * CL 3 * 1000 GP craft cost * 2 spell has minutes duration * 2 for multiple abilities in item???).

The second through fourth items have varying costs depending on what a "Cloak of Invisibility" means to a DM.

If he thinks that you can just use the Invisibility spell straight up, it costs 12000 GP to craft. If he thinks that because of the attack limitation on the Invisibility spell, it could have a duration in the "rounds" timeframe, that the cost should be * 4 instead of * 2, then it would cost 24000 GP to craft. Or finally, he could decide that the concept of a continuous invisibility is one which requires Greater Invisibility and then the cost jumps to a whopping 112,000 GP.

Now, the functionality of a first edition Elvencloak is more closely emulated with the +19 Hide Cloak of Elvenkind than it is with a Cloak of Invisibility because it did not provide true invisibility in 1E/2E. However, a +19 Hide Cloak is too weak to actually emulate the powers of the 1E Elvencloak since that cloak also had a 50% not spotted chance in bright light and the 95% not spotted chance in shadows could not be countered with someone with a high "Spot skill".

The fifth item above sort of emulates the original cloak in that it always gives a concealment bonus and a +19 Hide bonus, hence, you could hide in plain sight with it (just like the original cloak). It is not identical to the original Elvencloak since the 95% chance to spot in shadows is often lower (due to a majority of characters both PC and NPC having higher Spot chances than Hide chances) but its spot in bright light is higher and it provides a 20% miss chance.

If you call these minor differences a wash, then the fifth item is sort of what emulates best. In fact, I could even use these mechanics to craft the cloak and then state that it has the exact same functionality as the 1E cloak (i.e. 95% chance to not be spotted, etc.) and none of the 3.5 functionality (i.e. no miss chance, etc.).


Now, having done these calculations, it is apparent that I can emulate the 1E cloak.

My issues with this are:

1) Even knowing the rules reasonably well, it took quite a bit of effort to craft an item (and I am still not sure about the * 2 cost for the multiple spells in item rule) which really does basically what the 1E cloak does as opposed to just looking in the DMG for the "same" (Elvencloak vs. Cloak of Elvenkind) item. It's mildly annoying to have to go to that effort.

2) The 3.5 +5 Hide item is nowhere near as powerful as a +19 Hide Continuous Blur item. It is such a nerf that the +19 Hide Blur item is desirable as a player for my character, just like an Elvencloak was desirable back in 1E days. The +5 Hide item is basically a joke. Not only will I not go out of my way to acquire one, it takes up a precious item slot which can be used for a lot more useful items like a Cloak of Resistance or one of the Cloaks of Displacement (or even a Cloak of Charisma for a Bard or Sorcerer).

3) Different DMs will come up with different ways to emulate the original cloak (there are 5 different ways that I listed here). That is a problem, especially for character conversion. There is no nice clean solution because the designers gave a totally different ability item virtually the same name and then did not create an item that had the original ability.

KarinsDad said:

2) The 3.5 +5 Hide item is nowhere near as powerful as a +19 Hide Continuous Blur item. It is such a nerf that the +19 Hide Blur item is desirable as a player for my character, just like an Elvencloak was desirable back in 1E days. The +5 Hide item is basically a joke. Not only will I not go out of my way to acquire one, it takes up a precious item slot which can be used for a lot more useful items like a Cloak of Resistance or one of the Cloaks of Displacement (or even a Cloak of Charisma for a Bard or Sorcerer).

3) Different DMs will come up with different ways to emulate the original cloak (there are 5 different ways that I listed here). That is a problem, especially for character conversion. There is no nice clean solution because the designers gave a totally different ability item virtually the same name and then did not create an item that had the original ability.

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So the problems you have with the present 3.5 "Cloak of Hiding" are based on nomenclature?

My problem with the 3.0 skill boosting items was their cheapening of skill points. Your proposed "Cloak of Elvenkind" is good, in that it does cost a packet and yet remains a highly prized item. The cheapness of skill boosting items in 3.0 meant that one of the major advantages of being a rogue was simply replaced with a little cash expenditure.