Vow of Poverty: Power Analysis

I found this excellent posts over on the WotC boards.

This was posted by Trachmyr:

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]First I'll try to break down the VoP into a gp amount, and yes I know it's been done before... just consider this a "second opinion."

"Exalted" AC Bonus
Equivalent to Bracers of Armor +5 and a Mithral Light Shield +4 (Thus no spell failure, Armor check penalty or max dex limit).
Cost: 25,000 + 17,009 = 42,309

Bonus Exalted Feats
There is no direct formula for pricing feats, but by examples listed in the DMG and other sources (particullary the A&EG) they seem to fall in the range of 5,000 to 10,000 range. I'll use 10,000 per feat, and I'll add all of these feats to the "Robe of Celestial Blood" listed below under Damage Reduction for +50% cost on each (Slot Affinity and effect correlation are in line enough to avoid a full +100% cost.) I'm only charging for 10 feats, mainly because I believe the Vow of Poverty text is in error. The text states that a feat is gained at 1st level, but the chart does not list a bonus feat at that level. While the text shows that only a human can get the first bonus feat, this still holds true... infact if there was a feat granted at 1st level, humans would gain 2 feats more than any other race... which I do not believe was inteneded.
Cost: 15,000 x 10 = 150,000

Endure Elements
While such an item can eaisly be created using the rules for little gold, this ability is completely superceded by later energy resistance.
Cost: None

Exalted Strike
Equivalent to a +5 Longsword with a continous "Align Weapon" effect. I would disagree with those who would base the cost on an amulet of mighty fists, since a longsword is by far more common to be used as a +5 weapon. This is however, where monks do gain some advantages with a Vow of Poverty over other classes.
Cost: 50,315 + 24,000 = 74,315

Sustenance
Equivalent to a Clear Spindle Ioun Stone
Cost: 4,000

Deflection
Equivalent to a Ring of Protection +3, but ability added to an unslotted item at +100% cost increase
Cost: 18,000

Resistance
Equivalent to a Cloak of Resistance +3
Cost: 9,000

Ability Score Enhancement
This proves slightly problematic, as the +8 to one score reaches into epic level... it can be rectified with the use of inherent bonuses, although it's kinda icky since the character can still have gained inherent bonuses at an earlier date. It's somewhat justified by the fact that ascetic characters are far less likely to have inherent bonuses than other characters. Equivalent to a Belt of Giant Strength +6, Manual of Gainful Exercise +2, Gloves of Dexterity +6, "Shirt of Health +4" (Affinity Matches) and a Scarlet and Blue Sphere Ioun Stone.
Cost: 36,000 + 55,000 + 36,000 + 16,000 + 8,000 = 151,000

Natural Armor
Equivalent to an Amulet of Natural Armor +2.
Cost: 8,000

Mind Shielding
Equivalent to a Ring of Mind Shielding +3, but made into a headband instead of a ring.
Cost: 8,000

Damage Reduction
This was another tricky one to price... closest thing to it would be a Robe that grants a continous Celestial Blood effect (from BOED). While Celestial Blood actually grants more than what is needed, I'll use the full price.
Cost: 134,500

Greater Sustenance
Equivalent to a Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone
Cost: 18,000

Energy Resistance
Equivalent to a Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance, Minor (From the ELH & A&EG)
Cost: 144,000

Freedom of Movement
Equivalent to a Ring of Freedom of Movement, but made into a pair of boots rather than a ring.
Cost: 40,000

Regeneration
Equivalent to a Ring of Regeneration
Cost: 90,000

True Seeing
Equivalent to a proposed "Lenses of True Seeing"
Cost: 180,000

Slots Used: "weapon", "shield", headband, amulet, bracers, cloak, 2 rings, boots, lenses, belt, gloves, shirt & robe. (also 3 Ioun Stones, 1 unslotted and 1 Manual)
Obviously I slotted items in a very cost-efficient way, and some of these items would be quite rare in certain campaigns... but the character loses a huge amount of flexibility in choosing, switching out, and gaining magical buffs... so I think that more than balances out.

TOTAL VALUE: 1,071,124
This compared to 760,000, the standard starting wealth for level 20. The VoP character winds up with 311,124 more in value by my calculations.

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My conclusion would be that the VoP is overpowered, even when considering the loss of versatility, in-game and role-playing restrictions and limitations... the gains still seem too significant.

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Thus I propose an alternate VoP gains table that is more in line with Starting wealth, a bit more flexible, and setup to continue into epic levels. Also I would suggest that Effective Character Level be used insted of Character level, as Starting Wealth is also based on ECL.

AC Bonus: A 1st level ascetic recieves a +5 Sacred bonus to Armor Class. This increases by +1 at 2nd level and every 3 levels past 2nd. This bonus does not apply vs. touch or incorporal touch attacks, but does apply versus brilliant weapons.

Endure Elements: As the spell, granted at 3rd level.

Resistance: Character gains a +1 Sacred bonus to all saving throws at 3rd level, this continues to improve by +1 for every 4 additional levels/

Bonus Ability: The character can choose one bonus ability from the list listed below, although the character must meet any prerequisites required and must meet all level requirements for the ability. Bonus abilities can be gained retroactively.

Exalted Strike: At 2nd level the character gains +1 to all attack (but not damage rolls), at 4th level this becomes a Sacred enhancement bonus to all attack and damage rolls, and all attacks are treaed as if magical. This bonus increases by another +1 per 4 additional levels. At 10th level the Exalted Strike is considered good-aligned.

Sustenance: At 5th level the character need not eat or drink.

Ability Score Increase: At 7th level the character gains a +2 Exalted bonus to the ability score of their choice. Every additional ? levels the character gaines another +2 bonus to any ability score of their choice although they cannot select the same ability score twice in a row. Exalted bonuses do not stack with any inherent bonuses gained, use only the highest modifier.

Damage Reduction: At 10th level the character gains Damage Reduction 5/Evil, this improves by 5 for every additional 9 levels gained.

Greater Sustenance: At 14th level the character need not breathe.

Energy Resistance: At 13th level the character gains Energy Resistance 5 to all elements, this resistance increases by 5 for every 5 additional levels gained.

Regeneration: At 17th level the character gains the ability to heal 1 point of damage per character level per hour rather than per day.

1st: AC Bonus +5
2nd: AC Bonus +6, Exalted Strike +1 (Attack rolls only)
3rd: Endure Elements, Resistance +1, Bonus Ability
4th: Exalted Strike +1 (Magical)
5th: AC Bonus +7, Sustenance
6th: Bonus Ability
7th: Resistance +2, Ability Score Increase
8th: AC Bonus +8, Exalted Strike +2
9th: Bonus Ability, Ability Score Increase
10th: Damage Reduction 5/Evil, Exalted Strike +2 (Good)
11th: AC Bonus +9, Resistance +3, Ability Score Increase
12th: Exalted Strike +3, Bonus Ability
13th: Energy Resistance 5, Ability Score Increase
14th: AC Bonus +10, Greater sustenance
15th: Resistance +4, Bonus Ability, Ability Score Increase
16th: Exalted Strike +4
17th: AC Bonus +11, Regeneration, Ability Score Increase
18th: Energy Resistance 10, Bonus Ability
19th: Resistance +5, Dmage Reduction 10/Evil, Ability Score Increase
20th: AC Bonus +12, Exalted Strike +5

Bonus Abilities can be chosen from the following, as well as the minimum character level required to choose the ability:
Bonus Exalted Feat (3rd): Character gains one exalted feat, although they must still meet all prerequisites. This bonus can be selected multiple times.
Low-Light Vision (3rd): Character gains low-light vision.
Bonus Feat (3rd): Character can choose Endurance, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Self-Sufficient or Toughness as a bonus feat. This ability can be selected multiple times.
Lay on hands (6th): The character can heal a number of hit points equal to twice their character level per day. The character may not heal themselves with this ability.
Remove Disease (6th): The character can cast Remove Disease once per day as a spell like ability.
Minor Creation (6th): The character can cast minor creation as a spell-like ability once per day, caster level equals character level. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the character must still provide the material componet.
Pass without Trace (6th): The character is under a continous Pass without Trace effect.
Longstrider (6th): The character is under a continous Longstrider effect.
Levitation (9th): As per Boots of Levitation and Ring of Feather Falling.
Misdirection (9th): As per the ring of the same name.
Disease Immunity (9th): Character gains immunity to all natural and supernatural diseases.
Mind Shielding (9th): As per the ring of the same name.
Animal Friendship (9th): As per the ring of the same name.
Chameleon Power (12th): As per the ring of the same name.
Waterwalking (12th): As per the ring of the same name.
Evasion (12th): As per the ring of the same name.
Telepathy (12th): As per the Helm of Telepathy but without the ability to make a suggestion.
Poison Immunity (12th): Character is immune to all natural and supernatural poisons.
Defective Aura (12th): Your Exalted AC bonus now applies to touch and incorporeal touch attacks.
Freedom of Movement (15th): As per the ring of the same name.
Teleportation (15th): As per Boots of Teleportation.
Spell Resistance (15th): Character gains SR 10 + Character level.
Longeveity (15th): Character no longer suffers from aging penalties, although past penalties are not removed. Bonuses still accrue.
Tounges (15th): Character is under a continous Tounges effect.
True Seeing (18th): Gain a Continous True Seeing ability.
Miracle (18th): Character can cast Miracle once per week as a spell-like ability at a caster level equal to character level. The Miracle can only be cast to benefit another other than the character. Unlike most spell-like abilities, the character must still spend any XP normally required by the spell.
Commune (18th): The character can cast commune as a spell-like ability once per day with no XP cost.

Epic Progression
AC bonuses, Resistance bonuses, Bonus Abilities, Exalted Stike (Bonus only), Ability Score Increases, Damage Reduction & Energy Resistances resistances continue to increase at the given progressions.

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The VoP might very well be overpowered, but a straight item gp comparison is not the way to prove it. This is because there are a LOT of less than optimum item configurations possible at high levels that come out to the same gp amount. The balance assumption the game makes is that you will make the optimum choice for equipment give your level and class abilities. This is one case where flexibility most certainly equates with power. Thus, you have to compare the optimum equipment list for any given single classed character with the utility the limited feat selection Vow of Poverty provides provides.

I would go so far as to say many of the bonus are worth more than listed there. They can never be stolen, lost, broken or sundered, etc.

The first thing I decided in the Exodus arena (see SIG) was to remove the bonus feats form the Vow of Poverty.

As for the analysis posted above: if you take the Vow later in your "life", you could have used manuals (etc) to increase your attributes, and THOSE benefits you would keep.

So price that +8 enhancement to one attribute as an Epic item ... 640,000gp.

jasamcarl said:

The balance assumption the game makes is that you will make the optimum choice for equipment give your level and class abilities.

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I disagree. I belieev that the balance assumption that the game makes is that a character will normally have developed his portfolio of magic items over time, so the 20th level character doesn't normally have a flat 760,000gp worth of stuff (or whatever), but he has whatever he had at 19th level + an x00,000gp worth of additional equipment.

There are terrible balance problems which appear when a DM allows a player to create a PC at 14th level with carte blanche to spend the appropriate gp value for that character level - because he could use all the cash to obtain things optimised for his own level, including more high-value items. An adventurer who has worked his way up from 1st level will, of necessity, have had many lower-value items forming a portion of his wealth.

Of course a DM -could- allow a PC to cash in everything and purchase a whole new bunch of stuff at the next level if he wants to, nothing to stop that. But I don't think that is the baseline assumed in the game.

Cheers

Plane Sailing said:

IThere are terrible balance problems which appear when a DM allows a player to create a PC at 14th level with carte blanche to spend the appropriate gp value for that character level - because he could use all the cash to obtain things optimised for his own level, including more high-value items. An adventurer who has worked his way up from 1st level will, of necessity, have had many lower-value items forming a portion of his wealth.

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We've never seen this be a problem. In fact, when we build higher-level PCs, those people (like me) who don't like their characters to be wearing magic items like Christmas tree ornaments -- and so concentrate the wealth in fewer items -- tend to be substantially less powerful, gear-wise, than others. (We almost have to force the power-gamer in our group to buy at least a little high-ticket stuff, rather than loading up on myriad utility items.) It's a function of the geometric cost increases in the magic items.

Although the DM is of course free to impose any restrictions he wants, he'd be much better advised to limit the upper number of magic items than the upper price, if he's concerned about PC balance.

I agree for the most part with the analysis above. The only thing to consider is that while all of those items were kind of engineered to *match* the abilities of the VoP-ascetic, the next time the group stumbles across a +(epic)x sword/ring/headband/etc... who is the ONE person in the party who is going to be unable to be even considered for it?? It doesn't matter what the DM lays down in front of the party as spoils of war, gifts from quests, etc... The VoP-ascetic has no choice but to turn his back and let the rest of the party decide who gets to use all that cool stuff. Its a very static class. You have to realize that you are going to KNOW the magical-limits of a VoP character at every step along the way.

I understand that the VoP'er has a right to his/her share of the party booty (hehe... booty) but that it CANNOT factor into the character's abilities, bonuses, etc at any point.

just a thought from a newly formed VoP-addict.

This seems pretty damning to me. No VOP in my games.

The monk in my epic campaign has Vow of Poverty. He got it after first having built a non-VoP version. The main differences between the two versions were that the VoP charater's AC was lower, but his save were higher.

We haven't had any troubles with it from a balance perspective yet.

Plane Sailing said:

There are terrible balance problems which appear when a DM allows a player to create a PC at 14th level with carte blanche to spend the appropriate gp value for that character level - because he could use all the cash to obtain things optimised for his own level, including more high-value items. An adventurer who has worked his way up from 1st level will, of necessity, have had many lower-value items forming a portion of his wealth.

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Yes, there are advantages to making, say, a 14th level character, but I would say the problems are greater for feat selection than wealth. Using vanilla DMG wealth levels roughly half the wealth of a fresh 14th level character was gained in levels 13 & 12. The amount of wealth gained in levels 1-9 is negligible, especially if you consider how likely the bushel of low value items were to have been sold. What will a 14th level character do with a +1 sword once he captures a +3 sword?