Cityworks vs. Magical Medieval Society?

The budget is tight right now, given that I need to ensure I'm not just buying Christmas presents for myself, but others as well.

Monte Cook gave these both good reviews, though he gave the Soceity book a higher rating.
[ http://www.montecook.com/arch_review25.html -MMS
http://www.montecook.com/review.html - Cityworks ]


I run in one game and play in another both using the Kalamar setting and I have the free download PDF of the city section of the soceity book. Both games are currently taking a city focus, but likely to eventually move outwards (in fact mine should end up in the jungle within the next two sessions).

The cities used for each game are semi detailed already. My game is in Zoa which has a few page entry in the main campaign book, the other DM is about to try and get us to relocate from a small town to a city that's detailed in a chapter within a new book - Sobateta.

Given that I use an established published setting, which of these books is of more use to me? I'm one of the trigger people in my group - once I have it I tend to push it off on everyone else and maybe they get it, maybe they just talk about it and glance at my copy.

I want something that will help me run my game smoothly in the city of Zoa once they get back from the jungle, and perhaps smoothly elsewhere if they up and decide to catch a ship to the capital of 'who-knows-where'. Being a pre-published setting I don't need info for building the soceity from the ground up, but I do need info for taking what's there and bringing it to life. In the long run I need both the larger picture for planning overall and the focused in picture for when the PCs tell me 'you know what, we're going down the next street over, not this one you thought we would take' and I need to refocus in mid game - doing it both well and consistantly.

So if you're only getting one of these two, which one?

I've also got a plan for getting Penumbra's Dynasties and Demogues book or Mongoose's Strongholds and Dynasties book or AEG's Empires book... Depending on which will integrate best with my choice above, my budget, and my needs - but that purchase will likely be held till January or Febuary.

For your immediate needs as described, City Works is the better value.

AMMS:WE is mostly about the whole society. The chapter on cities is very good, but it is in the context of how the city fits into a whole Medieval society. The more your setting is removed from Medieval Europe, the less directly relevant that is. The materials on populating a city are less useful when you HAVE one already, also, although the notes on dividing power and allocating who "belongs to" what power center are still valuable.

On the other hand, City Works is all about making cities come alive. The section on how to map a city, how many buildings in a ward, and so on are quite valuable. Also, the pieces on the quality of guard units are well thought out and helpful -- especially when trying to decide just how hard it is to smuggle something in, or to bribe a guard at the gate to let you out. This book is of much more immediate value running in a city already created.

That being said, I will also voice my complaint about CityWorks. The last 16 pages is a "free preview" of Sorcery & Steam. While Sorcery & Steam is nice, for the preview to be free, it should not be part of the pagecount. I wanted a book on cities, not a book on cities with a chapter-sized ad for another product.

With regard to your future purchase

I have not read Mongoose's book yet, but I have looked at AEG's Empire. From what I have heard of Dynasties & Demagogues, it sounds like it is going in a direction that does not interest me, so I will be unable to comment on it.

However, in regards to integration among the ones I have read...
AMMS:WE is, as I said, about the whole cloth of society, and is based on the Medieval European model. City Works is about cities specifically, in any culture or setting.

AMMS:WE integration with Empire: In some ways, these books dovetail fairly well. AMMS:WE can be used to provide a lot of detail for a kingdom mapped out in terms of Empire's system. However, that detail is all predicated on a Medieval European society. There is also potential for clashing, as AMMS:WE tries to project how Medieval Europe might have looked with D&D magic present, which Empire is more about modeling the supply and resource chains within a kingdom. If you are looking for a way to manage the details of a small grant of land awarded to the PCs, to tell them in what way they make money and how much they make, then AMMS:WE is an excellent resource. Its Manor system depicts in a convenient balance of detail and ease-of-use the management of manors (shameless plug for me: I supplied some Excel versions of the worksheets in the book for Expeditious Retreat's Community Support page, to make the work even easier).

CityWorks integration with Empire: Although these books are actually both by the same author, there is not too much interaction. Empire treats cities as abstract 'collection nodes' for resources within a Realm. There is virtually no detail about the city to clash or synergize with. So much so that, if your focus is a single city in an established region, Empire may not be that much help to you. As I described it in another thread, Empire "feels" a lot like playing the Civilization computer games ... each city is more important in terms of how it contributes to the kingdom as a whole than for any intrinsic value of its own, if you see what I mean, and its details (in Empire) are solely about its function as a resource processing center.

If you sign up for a free RPGNow account, you can download just the city chapter of MMS:WE for free here: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1678&.

I don't own MMS, but I own and use City Works -- it's a good book. Very general, but full of solid ideas and details you might not otherwise think of on your own.

I've got that free chapter. It's a nice item and I've wondered when exactly I should get the remaining book.

So far it looks like Cityworks is the book I should focus on for now though, and get Magical Medieval Society afterwards.

Arcady,

If you're going to mostly stay in the city, Cityworks is probably your better first choice.

I know, *gasp* I'm not plugging MMS:WE first...

If you're moving out of the city, I'd pick up MMS:WE. There's really nothing quite like it for giving a good explaination of how a society can function. Also, MMS:WE has a real good fit with Kalamar.

joe b.

arcady said:

I've also got a plan for getting Penumbra's Dynasties and Demogues book or Mongoose's Strongholds and Dynasties book or AEG's Empires book... Depending on which will integrate best with my choice above, my budget, and my needs - but that purchase will likely be held till January or Febuary.

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I have Dynasties & Demagogues but not the other two, but from what I've read of the others: if you want a book to help handle the action when the players get involved in politics on a personal level, wheeling & dealing or being a player within the system, look at Dyn & Dem. (It also has stuff about different political systems and designing political adventures. You may not need that, I don't know

If you want a book which handles running a kingdom or other power base (city, etc) then you want one of the other two.

jgbrowning said:

Arcady,

If you're going to mostly stay in the city, Cityworks is probably your better first choice.

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What!?!? How DARE you say that? Who do you think you are, anyway?

Oh. Um. Hi, Joe.

Anyway....

MMS is an incredible book. Its not like it has a great abyssal hole when it comes to cities. I'd get MMS and use the rest of the book for the rest of your campiagn. Hey, you never know when the party might want to travel out of the city!

BiggusGeekus said:

What!?!? How DARE you say that? Who do you think you are, anyway?

Oh. Um. Hi, Joe.

Anyway....

MMS is an incredible book. Its not like it has a great abyssal hole when it comes to cities. I'd get MMS and use the rest of the book for the rest of your campiagn. Hey, you never know when the party might want to travel out of the city!

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Thanks BG, I think that since the two chapters on cities are out as a free PDF (which he already has), he has the majority of direct city information from MMS:WE. There's a lot more in there he'd definitly find use for, but most of it wouldn't be directly pertaining to cities.

joe "not a very good marketteer " b.

jgbrowning said:

joe "not a very good marketteer " b.

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Keep putting out good books, and word of mouth will do a lot of marketing for you.