why no gnomes?
- Thread starter redwing00
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
redwing00 said:
Well, he had to leave Terry Brooks something, or people might think Sword of Shannara was just a LotR rip-off.
-Hyp.
It's not in LotR because fairie, fay, and gnomes are just extremely degenerated elves in Tolkien's world. Thus, they don't come about for a couple more ages after the era LotR is set in.
Also, there are tons of common mythological concepts that Tolkien didn't use. There aren't any Vampires, Zombies, or Mermaids in Tolkien's work either. This is called maintaining a consistent solid feel and is not remarkable whatsoever, what really is remarkable is D&D's insistence on using every single mythological creature/figure it can lay it's hands on.
Also, there are tons of common mythological concepts that Tolkien didn't use. There aren't any Vampires, Zombies, or Mermaids in Tolkien's work either. This is called maintaining a consistent solid feel and is not remarkable whatsoever, what really is remarkable is D&D's insistence on using every single mythological creature/figure it can lay it's hands on.
Ashy
First Post
Well, there were werewolves, but that was way back in the First Age.... Of course, they were not called werewolves but Morgoth often took the shape of a giant, slavering wolf. Come to think of it, it seems like there were some mermaid like creatures around Numenor, but I will have to dig through the Silmarillion to find any specific references...
However, back to the point, I think that Ackem is right, in Tolkien's mind, "gnome" was nearly synomyous with "elf", as per the ancient mythologies of Britian and Europe, so to mention them by that name (the elves have enough names as it is) would be even more distracting and confusing.
Also, just so that everyone knows, D&D got the stereotypes of elves, dwarves and halflings from Tolkien, not the other way around.
However, back to the point, I think that Ackem is right, in Tolkien's mind, "gnome" was nearly synomyous with "elf", as per the ancient mythologies of Britian and Europe, so to mention them by that name (the elves have enough names as it is) would be even more distracting and confusing.
Also, just so that everyone knows, D&D got the stereotypes of elves, dwarves and halflings from Tolkien, not the other way around.
The High Elves who dwelled in Valinor were termed Gnomes in some early writings - he used the derivation from the Greek gnomos (wisdom or learning or something). However, he found that people got mixed up with the conception of the gnome as an earth-spirit, who he stopped using it.
I think it's mentioned in the Hobbit...I definitely recall a note in the Letters of JRR Tolkien discussing translation issues.
I think it's mentioned in the Hobbit...I definitely recall a note in the Letters of JRR Tolkien discussing translation issues.
Turjan
Explorer
Actually, the last part of the original question doesn't make any sense. It's like asking "Why not use stereotype #7 before those stereotypes were invented?".
As far as the mythological sources that Tolkien used are concerned, elves, dwarves, and gnomes were the same. He decided to use different aspects of those elves in order to flesh out elves and dwarves, but he obviously had no use for another aspect of this kind.
As far as the mythological sources that Tolkien used are concerned, elves, dwarves, and gnomes were the same. He decided to use different aspects of those elves in order to flesh out elves and dwarves, but he obviously had no use for another aspect of this kind.
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Buttercup
Princess of Florin
It didn't work.Hypersmurf said:
But as for the original question, Tolkien had a clear vision of his world. He spent years thinking and writing about it, which is why it ended up as a coherent whole. Ask why he did or didn't include any random bit of mythology and you will find only one answer: that bit didn't fit his vision.
Keep in mind too, that your early 21st century definition of a gnome bears little resemblance to the one a man born in the 19th would have had.
John Q. Mayhem
Explorer
Aren't the Noldor supposed to be the gnomes? Rather different from D&D gnomes, if I'm right. I remember something about it, but it escapes me...
redwing00 said:
But actually, it isn't. Words akin to "gnome" appear all over Europe, but rarely do any two groups agree on what the darned things are. Similarly for "dwarves" and "elves". There's vague mappings between the mythological critters of various cultures, but they are only vague.
D&D stole some concepts from Tolkien, and Tolkien influenced pretty much every Engligh language fantasy writer after him. But don't for a minute mistake that for the idea that Tolkienesque elves and dwarves are really mythologically common.
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