TWF penalties and AOOs

pvandyck · Jan 20, 2004

I apologize if this had been discussed to death, but you can't search for terms like AOO TWF, etc. and that's the only way to find this stuff. I just tried for an hours to search here at on Google groups and wizards with other terms, but it just doesn't work.

Basically, do the TWF penalities apply to AOOs you make later in the round?

Case - 1 lvl ranger with double sword. Attacks in the round (-4 primary, -8 offhand) with str and base attack bonus (+1 primary, -3 offhand).

Later in the round, something moves through his threatened squares. Does he swing with the primary end at +5 to hit?

pvandyck

jgsugden · Jan 20, 2004

Although the SRD is not 100% clear on this issue (and I do not believe the book is 100% clear either), most DMs rule that you must choose whether you are fighting with two weapons before your first attack during a round. If you decide you are fighting with two weapons, the penalties go into effect and stay in effect until your next turn begins. Accordingly, they apply to AoOs and attacks gained via haste.

Ranger REG · Jan 21, 2004

pvandyck said:
Basically, do the TWF penalities apply to AOOs you make later in the round?

Technically, no. In an AoO, you make one single melee attack as a reaction. Because of only one single attack with one weapon and no attack from your other weapon, the two-weapon fighting penalties do not apply.

There are some gamers that think that having the TWF feat allows you to make an extra attack as part of your AoO, and so they do apply the two-weapon fighting penalties to make to two attacks (primary and off hand) per AoO. My gaming group is NOT one of them.

Ottergame · Jan 21, 2004

An AoO is a single melee attack, therefore you could have a billion arms using a billion weapons using feats that give you a billion more attacks in a round, but you would still be limited to a single melee attack with an AoO.

As far as the original poster's question goes, you get your normal BAB.

Hypersmurf · Jan 21, 2004

Ottergame said:
An AoO is a single melee attack, therefore you could have a billion arms using a billion weapons using feats that give you a billion more attacks in a round, but you would still be limited to a single melee attack with an AoO.

... although there's debate about the hydra.

As far as the original poster's question goes, you get your normal BAB.

Well, it depends on your DM's interpretation of "fight this way"

I'm in the same camp as jgsugden described - if you're fighting with two weapons, the penalties apply, even though you only physically make the AoO with one.

-Hyp.

dcollins · Jan 21, 2004

I actually think this (expanded to the general case) is one of the bigger oversights in the 3.x combat rules. I agree with jgs and Hyp that TWF penalties should apply to later AOOs. My reading is that this is definitely not required by the letter of the rules.

I wish there were a blanket rule that said "Whatever profile you took your last action in, is how you are treated until your next turn". Maybe that's effectively too much to remember or something.

Altamont Ravenard · Jan 21, 2004

dcollins said:
I wish there were a blanket rule that said "Whatever profile you took your last action in, is how you are treated until your next turn". Maybe that's effectively too much to remember or something.

He. I've always assumed that this was the way to go. If you power attacked last round, your AoO's will be power attacks too. If you used TWF last round, your AoO's will be penalized as if you were still using TWF.

Are there any contrary examples to this?

AR

Hypersmurf · Jan 21, 2004

Altamont Ravenard said:
He. I've always assumed that this was the way to go. If you power attacked last round, your AoO's will be power attacks too. If you used TWF last round, your AoO's will be penalized as if you were still using TWF.

Well, Power Attack specifically states that the penalty lasts until your next action. Attacking with two weapons states that penalties apply when you "fight this way".

There's dispute as to exactly what "fight this way" covers.

-Hyp.

dcollins · Jan 21, 2004

Altamont Ravenard said:
Are there any contrary examples to this?

As Hyp noted, the problem is there's only a few examples where that is the case, and they're specific to Charging, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise. There's no general statements, nothing for Two-Weapon Fighting, nothing for Ranged Attacks, nothing for opt-to-close-your-eyes, etc., etc.

Hypersmurf · Jan 21, 2004

dcollins said:
As Hyp noted, the problem is there's only a few examples where that is the case, and they're specific to Charging, Power Attack, and Combat Expertise.

Combat Expertise also has that funky wording of "until your next action", which is ambiguous.

Rapid Shot's another one where it's not clear if penalties apply to AoOs - is an AoO a "normal one" when it comes to attacks?

-Hyp.

TWF penalties and AOOs

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