Initiating combat and initiative

Situation: Two groups are having an intense parley, wary that hostilities could break out at any time. Someone decides it's going no where and declares intent to cast a spell (or maye a rogue quickdraws and attacks).

Would you normally allow that first action to go through before anyone can do anything or would you have everyone roll initiative?

If any mitigating circumstances? For example, what if the groups (or at least one) was sure they were on friendly terms and the attack was a complete surprise.

Instead of spot to detect the ambush, I'ld use Sense Motive vs the attackers Bluff or DC 10 if they make no attempt to conceal there action. Anyone that makes it gets to roll initiative and go in the same round as the attacker.

What if it's not a premeditated thing, but just "Screw this! I'm attacking." type of thought?

Cordo said:

What if it's not a premeditated thing, but just "Screw this! I'm attacking." type of thought?

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Sense Motive check to notice that the parley is ending in a violent manner, or a higher DC Spot check to notice the actual attack that is about to be made.

Either way it depends on how subtle the opposition wants to be. If the offender just throws up his hands and reaches for his sword, then I would imagine that everyone within hearing/visual distance will notice that something has gone wrong, and act more cautiously.

On the other hand if that same offender had decided that enough talking had passed, and was currently coming up with a plan to wipe out his enemies, then things would become quite a lot trickier. Checking enemy positions, perhaps looking around in a guarded manner and stuff like that is noticeable, but far less so than the example given above.

In any event I would say that the two sides are intitled to a Sense Motive / Spot check if they are paying attention to the parley.

Two wary groups, both bearing arms, will most likely have plans of their own is something goes down. If more people show up after introductions are made they might back away... if the other side moves too close they may draw steel, and if the other side draws, they most definitely will- even if only one member of the other side does. If crossbows or bows are aimed at each other through the meeting, almost the slightest thing could start a battle. This is akin to the first guy to fire at the Boston Massacre or what have you.

Generally, parties who are unfamiliar with each other waste absolutely no time defining what is acceptible to them, and making clear the consequences of any unacceptible actions. "If anyone starts casting a spell, we will open fire. If anyone draws steel, we will engage you. Swords must remain secure in their scabbards at all times..." and so on. Parties also tend to keep meetings as brief and to the point as possible when in neutral territory, because neutral territory means "a place both sides can maneuver to ambush each other if given the time, and thusly a great risk to all present." Only warrior codes or cultural codes that are well known and accepted by parties will allow anything close to trust to come into play.

Unless two groups are fairly amicable towards eachother, I'd allow the initiator to enjoy his surprise round and then have everyone react to that in the first round of combat. If both sides are prepared to act (and they should be), then the guy who starts it quite literally starts it. If one side is prepared and the other isn't, and its really up to the DM whether or not the other side is lacking foresight or sufficient jitters, then the entire team of PCs may get off actions before the enemy or even vice versa. Heck, you could have one nervous nobody guard waiting in the woods with a crossbow lose his nerve or just screw up and fire a bolt, either hitting a PC or a nearby bit of terrain, sparking a huge fight over a rather critical misunderstanding ("We've been Set UP!")

Sense Motive should be used in such social interaction to sense a set up or possibly tell how on edge the opposing side, while Bluff can be used to cover up such arrangements. It should be pretty obvious that everyone's more than willing to defend themselves, but if they're planning to attack, that should be dealt with with SM, as mentioned.

The point of Spot checks as a reactive (i.e., no action, not even free) is to determine things such as this.

I'd give a circumstance bonus to the Spot check if a successful Sense Motive check was made. Although using Sense Motive here is rather difficult since it is part of an opposed skill check (Sense Motive vs Diplomacy or Sense Motive vs Bluff).

Regardless, the point of Spot checks is to keep someone from being surprised. Basically anyone that makes their Spot checks get to act during the surprise round and everyone else has to wait.

Spot is based on a character's intuition or gut feeeling. Putting together things on an unconscious level to get a feeling that something is happening or that something is there. That is why it is Wis based while Search is Int based, Search is for anylizing information and making out details.

Now in a surprise round the most a character can do is a standard and a free action. So unless the character's are within 5' of each other the one that decides to attack can't do it before everyone is aware of his intentions.

Those spot and sense motive checks are house rules, right?

Since this is the rules forum... I think the intent of the rules was for initiative to be rolled at the point hostilities ensue. Since both sides are aware of the other, there is no 'surprise' round. It's sort of like a duel. Just because someone moves to attack first doesn't mean he actually does. Except that I'm guessing weapons are sheathed. For that matter, it's just like a gunfight, except with swords and magic. Maybe guns too, depending on your campaign.

As soon as hostilities begin, initiative begins. Those with high intiatives may choose not to act, but I wouldn't give anyone a free shot - that's too big of an advantage.

This also helps solve the old "I ready an action out of combat" problem - as soon as you say you do that, initiative starts.

All that said, I'm not sure this is addressed specifically in the rules.

The dmg has an example that covers this preety well. Basically if both sides are aware of each other, and there both somewhat on guard... its an initiative thing there's no surprise.

I would say tht the best bet is to allow a Sense Motive check to see it building up (before any weapons actually come out of scabbards) or Spot if someone is already reaching for steel.

The whole point of this discussion is the possibility of surprise when discussion breaks down, saying that it is just a straight initiative roll ignores the very real chance that one or more persons didn't see anything until they got hit. Depending on how alert the parties are, the DC for the Spot could be rather low. Perhaps something like Quickdraw might have a DC of 15 to Spot the beginnings of the combat, DC 10 without Quickdraw.