Sorcerer Fix - Continued from "D&D Rules" (PART 2)

Since the last thread went off-topic and reached far too many pages, I am splitting off to this new Thread to begin anew. (The old thread can be found here: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=75939&goto=newpo).

Thread Mission Statement: To create a dynamic and appealing version of the sorcerer class that:
A) Makes a sorcerer class mechanic that Matches the Flavor Text as designated in the PHB.
B) Balances the class to All of the existing core classes of the PHB.
C) Make the sorcerer a unique class with its own class abilities that separate it from being a Wizard that prepares spells differently.
D) Could be used as a substitute for the core sorcerer of the PHB, thus following a similar design template such as fixed skill lists and class abilities.
E) Present further Optional information to advance and customize the sorcerer.

Summary to Date
It has been discussed, ad nauseum, and determined that many feel that the sorcerer is overall, underpowered in comparison to the other base classes. It is also known that the sorcerer Flavor Text and sorcerer mechanics have little to do with one another. The flavor text is Non-OGL and has survived various development revisions pre-3.0 release, 3.0 release, 3.0 errata, 3.5 revision, and 3.5 errata. The flavor text of the sorcerer is here to stay. The purpose of this thread is to make a class mechanic that matches that flavor text and uses it to define what the sorcerer is and should be. There is also the need to make the sorcerer into a unique class and not just a wizard that prepares spells differently. The sorcerer needs to find its own niche and strength as a class, not just to be the equivalent of a Hedge Wizard. With that said, on to topics discussed so far.

Sorcerer to-date, at a Glance:
BAB: Poor
Saves: Will Good
HD: d6
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive and Spellcraft.
Skill Points: 4+INT
Weapons and Armor: Simple weapons and Light armor (no shields).
Spells: Spells remain the same except as noted here:

• A sorcerer’s spell selection is limited when compared to that of a wizard. A sorcerer begins play knowing 6 0-Level spells (Cantrips), and 2 1st-Level spells of their choice. At each new experience level, the sorcerer gains 2 new spells that may be acquired form any spell level that they currently may utilize.
• Evolving Spells: Sorcerer spells can also grow in time and evolve into more powerful versions of old spells. This concept is based on the concept of spell paths (by Sean K. Reynolds), a series of spells that build and grow upon the same basic premise. When a sorcerer acquires new known spells, and they have a spell that exists on a spell path with an appropriate higher-level spell available, the sorcerer can choose to “upgrade” the spell path spell they already know, replacing the original spell with the upgraded spell. They may then fill the abandoned spell slot with another spell that is available to them of the same spell level. A sorcerer can only upgrade one spell at any given level, even if they have multiple options for upgrading.
  [Example: Vond is a Sor5 who knows the invisibility spell. Upon reaching Sor6 he chooses to acquire 2 new 3rd-level spells known. Invisibility is a 2nd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility and invisibility sphere is a 3rd-level spell on the Path of Invisibility. Vond decides to upgrade his invisibility to invisibility sphere, which uses one of his new 3rd-level spell known slot. He now has an open spell known slot at 2nd level (formerly occupied by invisibility), which he may use to learn any other 2nd-level spell available to him.]

Class Abilities: Currently Unsettled beyond Spells and Aura. To balance to the other classes, class will have additional class abilities to give the class more utility and to match the balance of every other class.
Aura (Ex): Similar to clerics, sorcerers have a particularly powerful aura of magic about them since they are a focus of innate magic. When viewed by detect magic or arcane sight the sorcerer radiates with the presence of a single magical aura of universal origin unless the sorcerer has specialized their spell selection in a school of magic. The DC to determine a specific type of magic to the aura requires a successful Spellcraft check (DC 15+Sorcrerer class level).


Core Component Discussions/Reasoning:

Saves: This is pretty simple. Sorcerer remains with Good Will saves only as there is no justification in the flavor text for them to have anything else.

Combat: Using the Flavor Text as the definition of the class, we summarize Combat skill on:

• “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”
• “Sorcerers find they have most in common with members of the other self-taught classes, such as Druids and Rogues.”

To reflect this, most alt.sorcerer builds expand the sorcerer’s combat ability. This encompasses: BAB, HD, Weapons and Armor. The sorcerer is still more reliant on spell use as its primary ability than on melee combat, and as such is not as heavily trained in melee as rogues, clerics and druids. However they do train in some melee skills.
HD: The increase to a d6 HD brings the sorcerer to a level above wizards in melee but not as high as clerics and druids.
BAB: Sorcerer spells are more effective in combat when choosing offensive powers than divine caster spells. Sorcerers are also more magical with more spell use and will result in more reliance upon their spells than melee combat. Though sorcerers do train in melee combat they do not do so to the extent of a cleric or rogue and thus should retain the poor BAB.
Weapons: Retaining simple weapons for the sorcerer reflects their deeper training than wizards but it is unnecessary to give them any martial weapons as well, especially when clerics do not gain martial weapons either and are more trained in combat than sorcerers.
Armor: As for armor, the sorcerer gains proficiency in Simple Weapons which is a pretty broad group of fighting styles, which means the sorcerer has spent at least minimal time studying melee craft. In combat training, the first thing learned is the defensive abilities which in melee combat is armor use. If you do something enough, you become proficient. Thus if the sorcerer has had even the most basic of melee training, they know the basics of defense and how to wear at least light armor. (Arcane spell failure will be discussed later.)

Skills (Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Profession, Sense Motive and Spellcraft):
This covers the social skills of Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate and Sense Motive.

Concentration is a skill granted to all spellcasters as it is necessary to cast spells under stress.
Spellcraft is the skill a sorcerer uses to learn about their magic (spells) as it is the skill of learning the mechanics of spells, how they work, how to identify them, etc.
Craft & Profession are skills all classes should gain for good character development.

The arguments against Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill:

• “Since Sorcerers gain their powers without undergoing the years of rigorous study that Wizards go through, they don’t have the background of arcane knowledge that most Wizard’s have. However they have more time to learn to fighting skills.”
• “Sorcerers have no sense of identity as a group. Unlike Wizards, they gain little by sharing their knowledge and have no strong incentive to work together.”
• “A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul. Sorcerers cast spells through innate power rather than through carefully trained skills. Their magic is intuitive rather than logical. For Sorcerers, magic is an intuitive art, not a science.”
• “Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”

The Knowledge skill is defined in the rules as:

• “Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.”
• “The {Knowledge skill} check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something you never learned in the first place.”
• “An untrained knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, a character only knows common knowledge.”

The arguments against Use Magic Device as a class skill: (UNDECIDED)

• “Use this skill to activate magic devices,…that you could not otherwise activate.”
• ”Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.”

The skill is defined as a skill of deceit and trickery in that it allows you to “fool” a magic item into thinking you are something that you aren’t, not as a skill that allows you to manipulate the magic in the item. This skill would be a HUGE advantage to the sorcerer as it not only removes some of its natural restrictions, but grants them the ability to mimic spell ability from any class’s spell list, as well as to mimic any class, alignment or ability score prerequisite as well.
Thus I am not sure it should be included in the skill list of the sorcerer. However, with that said, I do see it as possible due to it being a Charisma based skill and the sorcerer does lack in skills and abilities based on its Primary Stat, as well as the fact that the sorcerer is supposed to be a character that relies on their ability to blend in and fool others (spy, diplomat, etc.)

Skill Points (4+INT):
“Sorcerers find they have most in common with members of the other self-taught classes, such as Druids and Rogues.”
All of the self taught classes rely on a decent skill selection to back up any other skills or spells they receive. Bringing the Sorcerer to 4+INT brings them in line with the Druid – the other self-taught pure spellcaster.


Unanswered Focus Questions:

SPELL USE
The flavor text description states:

• “A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul. Developing this power is a quest in itself for many Sorcerers, regardless of how they wish to use their power.”
• “For Sorcerers, magic is an intuitive art, not a science.”
• “Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems, with inborn talent honed by practice. They have no books, no mentors, no theories – just raw power that they direct at will.”
• “Their first spells are incomplete, spontaneous, uncontrolled and sometimes dangerous. Eventually the sorcerer understands the power that he has been wielding unintentionally. From that point on, he can begin practicing and improving his powers.”

Now the question here is:
How do we make the Sorcerer “feel” in the mechanics to be an “INNATE” caster that casts purely as “just raw power that they direct at will” without unbalancing the class or writing a new magic system?

Many have assigned permanent Eschew Materials and Still Spell abilities to the sorcerer. This makes the Sorcerer in the image of the “Will and the Word” form of magic (similar to Eddings’ Belgariad). My original argument was instead of adding two feats as permanent class abilities, use one single mechanic that is already in the game – and that is for their spells to actually be cast as if Spell-Like abilities. You do not see dragons, outsiders, etc. who get actual “Spells” (not talking about their spell-like abilities) that are “cast as if a sorcerer of X level” dragging out material components, chanting and waving their arms about in arcane ritual casting like wizards do. The magic is innate and cast by force of presence.

Contrary to some people’s arguments that “Characters don’t have spell-like abilities, only monsters do” – I beg to differ. Of the more commonly allowed player races: Gnomes, Aasimar, Tieflings, Half-Dragons, Half-Celestials, Half-Fiends, Drow, etc. all have Spell-Like Abilities. Classes with Spell-Like Abilities are the core Bard and Paladin, plus a slew of PrCs too numerous to count.

It is not unprecedented to allow a character to have Spell-Like Abilities. However, there is an argument to be made for spell components as a balancing tool. The problem is, to use spell components make the sorcerer’s magic not truly innate nor unique but simply casting as a Wizard does.
Is the medium ground to use SOME of the components and not others, such as only grant Eschew Materials?
Should we use a different magic system such as the spell point system from Unearthed Arcana?



HEREDITY
Since the sorcerer states “A Sorcerer’s power is inborn, and part of his soul.” and “Some Sorcerers claim the blood of dragons courses through their veins. Sorcerers even often have striking good looks, usually with a touch of the exotic that hints at an unusual heritage.”

Do we want to actually quantify Heredity in the core class or leave it to a PrC build?

So far the results to this query have been yes. Since it is a part of the sorcerer, it should be developed into the class. If this remains true.

How do we implement Heredity/Bloodlines into the sorcerer without unbalancing the class or making it too restrictive to the player?

The current sample idea is making something that allows for both styles – those who want a bloodline and one for those who don’t.

What I was thinking of starting by defining a basic generic Heredity Template such as:

This would be developed to give the sorcerer some defined Heredities of the more common types, as well as provide the template for new ones to be developed. This would be similar to Cleric Domains providing a list of base domains for reference with many other possibilities to be devised later. Two examples classes like this are Monte's Totem Warrior and Witch.

If we do go with something like this, what do we begin with in the core? Do we begin offering all of the "Typical" sorcerer heredities or only one or two such as focusing on the Dragon and a Divine Inspired?

Here is an Example:
At 1st level grant "Spell Path" as the set class ability. This would be the same level of "Mutability" as in the Cleric's Domain Choice, the Monk's Style Choice, or the Ranger's Weapon Style Choice.


Spell Path: Each sorcerer’s magic is somewhat unique. At 1st level the sorcerer may choose one of the following magic paths: Unknown Heredity or Heredity.

Unknown Heredity: The sorcerer's magic ancestry is so old that it has no overtly obvious source and takes on a more broad effect for the sorcerer. The sorcerer of an unknown heredity may choose one of the following Spell Paths.

Heredity: The sorcerer has a specific heredity that has a strong influence on their abilities. The sorcerer may choose from the Arcane Experiment, Child of Magic (dragons; celestial or fiend {maybe just Outsider?}; shapeshifters; and storm giants {or just giants?}), Child of Nature, Child of the Elements, Divine Receptacle, and Sorcerous Family.

Examples

Note that while the Non-Heredity options do not gain a new Class Skill or Language, they do gain 2 abilities (+1 caster level and +1 spell DC) and a Spell Path.

Once heredity is designed, how do we want to link heredity to class abilities or do we?
Do we use the “Minor Bloodline Traits” from Unearthed Arcana or do we go with a more generic set of abilities such as below?

Option 1:
1…..Aura, Spell Path, Spells
2….. Innate Ability
5….. Innate Ability
8….. Improved Innate Ability
11… Improved Innate Ability
14… Greater Innate Ability
17… Greater Innate Ability
20… Master Innate Ability

Innate Ability (Sp): The sorcerer is a manifestation of innate magic prowess. This innate magic grows in them slowly and eventually becomes a part of them. The sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 1st spell level. They can now cast this spell at will as a spell-like ability, a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus. This does not count against the sorcerer's spells per day. When a spell is chosen to grow into a spell-like ability, the sorcerer may choose to “lose” the old spell as a known spell in exchange for learning a new spell known. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. If the innate ability has an XP component, the sorcerer must still pay the XP cost each time they use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component with negligible cost (under 1gp), they do not need the focus to use the spell-like ability. If the innate ability has a material component for which a gold piece value is given, the sorcerer needs that component to use the spell-like ability. Since this is a spell-like ability and not an actual spell, it cannot be convert into any other spell nor given up to pay a spell slot cost, nor can it be converted to a signature spell.

Improved Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 2nd spell level.

Greater Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 3rd spell level.

Master Innate Ability (Sp): This manifestation of innate magic prowess is identical to the Innate Ability power except that the sorcerer may choose any spell they can cast of up to 4th spell level.


Option 2:
1…..Aura, Spell Path, Spells
2….. Innate Ability
5….. Sorcerer Ability
8….. Improved Innate Ability
11… Sorcerer Ability
14… Greater Innate Ability
17… Sorcerer Ability
20… Master Innate Ability
Some possible examples of Sorcerer abilities.
Arcane Sense: The sorcerer can feel magic flow through them as well as sense its presence and flow in all things around them as well. As a result of this deep attunement, the sorcerer’s senses allow them to see as if using detect magic (as the spell) at will. This ability is activated as a free action and requires full concentration for as many rounds as the sorcerer wishes to attain information (as the spell description).

Arcane Soul (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 7th level spells, they can draw on the power of their magic to gain spell resistance equal to 10+ the sorcerer’s class level.

Bonus Feat: The sorcerer may choose a bonus feat from the list below, though any necessary prerequisites must be bet. (For other sources such as 3rd party material these feats should focus on the sorcerer’s spells, social skills, heredity, and any other arcane pursuit.)
Players Handbook: Alertness, Augment Summoning, Combat Casting, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Improved Counterspell, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Magical Affinity, Negotiator, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Toughness

Familiar (Su): The sorcerer may choose to summon a familiar. The sorcerer may utilize all of the associated information on familiars.

Metamagic Feats: The sorcerer may choose a bonus metamagic feat. Metamagic feats are handled normally, taking a full round action to augment a spell with a metamagic effect.

Power of Magic (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells their innate power has grown enough to grant them a bonus to all saving throws equal to their Charisma modifier.

Purity (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can learn to channel their magic to purify their body. This purity of body grants the sorcerer immunity to all diseases except for supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Superior Vision (Su): The sorcerers innate magic grants them Darkvision 60' and Low-Light Vision.

Weapon Channel (Su): If the sorcerer can cast 2nd level spells they can draw on the force of their magic and learn to channel a fraction of that magic into any weapon they use. Any weapon wielded by the sorcerer is considered magic for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. This does not provide any other bonuses.


Constructive thoughts, comments, suggestions, answers to questions?

A word to the wise...

This thread is a worth-while read. Khaalis has lots of really good idea about sorcerers. But I suspect that he received a warning about the previous thread for good reason. If the ideas you submit do not match the ideas in his head, Khaalis may say something to you like "Thank you for submitting your ideas, but they only strengthen the convictions I already have". If dialogue is what you're after, especially regarding ideas that contrast the ones offered by Khaalis, don't hold your breath. You might get pigeon-holed into being either "for" or "against" the sorcerer submitted here. There is no "grey" space in between. That said, everybody is capable of turning a new leaf. I wish this thread prosperity, open-mindedness, and objectivity.

Sonofapreacherman said:

A word to the wise...
This thread is a worth-while read. Khaalis has lots of really good idea about sorcerers. But I suspect that he received a warning about the previous thread for good reason.

Click to expand...

Is this better?
If you really want to know what that good reason was - I was notified by a Mod that the thread might be closed because of YOUR posts if I couldnt stop the escallation. Since I cared about keeping the thread going and could care less if you get a censure, it was suggested to post what I said in my last post of the old thread to end the escalation and to begin a new thread. I was informed that the Mod was alerted to the problem because they received a report on your posts.

Yes Khaalis, you're completely innocent.

It's funny. You didn't read a single word I posted past the point that you just quoted me, did you? If you had, and actually let it sink in, we'd be a whole lot closer to resolving our dispute. I don't want this to go on. I want it to stop. But I will not be painted as the hijacker by you.

Sonofapreacherman said:

It's funny. You didn't read a single word I posted past the point that you just quoted me, did you? If you had, and actually let it sink in, we'd be a whole lot closer to resolving our dispute. I don't want this to go on. I want it to stop. But I will not be painted as the hijacker by you.

Click to expand...

Actually, please dont assume that I didnt read it. I read every word and let it sink in. However, I chose not to comment on it.

I chose to instead simply state the facts of what happened and what I was told.

You are the one who took the effort to come here to the new thread and post your little "warning" to everyone on a clean thread, and followed it up with 2 more replies, just to stir up trouble. If you really wanted it to end, you wouldnt have bothered to come in to the new thread and post. If you dont want to be painted the hijacker - dont post negative comments to continue it.

End it by saying that we agree to disagree and drop it - like I have tried to do twice now.

One more post - by either of you - commenting on the other's motivations or personal posting habits will get this thread closed.

Get back on topic, please.

The new socerer

This version was a lot easier to digest. Thanks for starting a new thread, Khaalis.

Personally, I like option 2 the best. And I note that the special abilities listed are also appropriate for sorcerers without a bloodline. I think that the mixture of innate magic (spell--> spell-like abiltity) and special abilities is a very good one that gives the sorcerer a lot of flavor.

Two comments only:

1) Adding a path (or the equivalent) to every sorcerer so they get one more spell per level introduces a lot of extra power, even when the spells in the path are sub-optimal like the Nature's Child path. Since we're adding a lot of other perks as well, I would worry less about balance if you simply dropped the number of spells per day by one per level. This still gives them more spells than the wizard gets.

2) Sorcerers are already excellent "magic machine guns", and giving specialized sorcerers +1 DC and +1 caster level just enhances that. I wouldn't want my campaign to have PCs drawn to the generalized background, evocation specialized sorcerer.

I think giving them +1 spell known per level is enough of a bonus to merit giving up a couple of schools, for a sorcerer.

Keep up the good work! I'm following this development avidly.

--Ben Mathiesen

fuindordm said:

Personally, I like option 2 the best. And I note that the special abilities listed are also appropriate for sorcerers without a bloodline. I think that the mixture of innate magic (spell--> spell-like abiltity) and special abilities is a very good one that gives the sorcerer a lot of flavor.

Click to expand...

First - Thanks for the input.

Secondly, as for the level abilities, we want to make sure it has the right balance. Do you think Sorcerer Ability and Innate are balanced correctly number wise and level wise?

Also instead of mutable "Sorcerer Ability" slots - do you think we should just assign specific abilities to those levels to make the sorcere more uniform?

Also, and very importantly, what are your thoughts on the Spell Use questions? As they are now? Eschew? Still?

Two comments only:
1) Adding a path (or the equivalent) to every sorcerer so they get one more spell per level introduces a lot of extra power, even when the spells in the path are sub-optimal like the Nature's Child path. Since we're adding a lot of other perks as well, I would worry less about balance if you simply dropped the number of spells per day by one per level. This still gives them more spells than the wizard gets.

Click to expand...

Please excuse me if I am misreading this statement, but it seems that you are under the impression that the spell path is one extra Spell Per Day per spell level? If that’s correct, then we need to step back a step to see if we’re on the same page. The Spell Path is a bonus KNOWN spell per Spell Level, not an extra CAST spell per Day per spell level. Does that help your fears?

2) Sorcerers are already excellent "magic machine guns", and giving specialized sorcerers +1 DC and +1 caster level just enhances that. I wouldn't want my campaign to have PCs drawn to the generalized background, evocation specialized sorcerer. I think giving them +1 spell known per level is enough of a bonus to merit giving up a couple of schools, for a sorcerer.

Click to expand...

On this topic, I have been told by quite a few people that keeping the bonuses to the Non-Heredity path similar to the template structure of the Heredity path and keeping tham all with a set template is essential for uniformity and balance. Thus no one option outweighs another. Different yes, but not stronger or weaker per say.

That template is basically:
• Gain one Class Skill related to the heredity.
• Gain an appropriate bonus language (draconic by default)
• Special Bonuses (set number? Currently 2)

• Specific Ability related to the heredity
• Spell List designation – what spells the heredity may learn outside of the Wizard spell list if any, and any restrictions on spells they may not learn at all

• Additional Spell Path (gain a Spell Path related to the heredity) - Remember, this is a bonus KNOWN spell per spell level.

For the Non-Heredity, Skill and Language don’t really fit. So the special benefits I had currently are the “Spell Focus” and “+1 Caster Level" to a specific set of spells (only 9 spells at 20th level). I had thought these weighed equally with the heredity templates Class Skill, Language, Special Ability, and Special Spell Selection. And were generic enough to fit any non-heredity style sorcerer.

The spell path is obvious and equal to all paths.

Now, to keep the Non-Heredity path balanced with Heredity path we would need to give it 2 Special benefits aside from the 9 known spells to the Non-Heredity path.

What would you give for the 2 Special Bonuses for the Specialist and the Domain Paths instead of "Spell Focus" and "+1 Caster Level" on those 9 bonus known spells?

Thanks ahead of time for any and all input.

I agree, now that the thread has been summarized I actually know what's going on

Khaalis, I noticed you were still looking for a way to model a sorc's inborn ability. I've also been working on an alt.sorc lately, here's my latest work: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1377370#post1377370. Its got a mechanic similar to a barb rage, you can see if that is something you'd like to add to the class.


As far as the heritages go, I think your going way too far on them. In them, I'm seeing things like giving sorcs divine grace and such. You've already giving sorcs more higher level spells, and giving them spell chain ability. I don't think a lot of power boosting heredities is a good idea at this point.

Perhaps instead, how about the heredities give you smaller, more flexible bonuses? For instance, in Arcana Unearthed there are several traits in there spell casters can take that can give them access to different templates. These templates can be added to spells similar to have metamagic works now. This would allow the sorc more customability in his spellcasting which I believe most would appreciate.