Wildshape clarification

Legildur · Mar 18, 2004

My elven druid has finally reached the heady heights of 5th level and acquired the ability to Wildshape. I have been following the debate on the various interpretations of the ability and Polymorph, and was really hoping that WotC would clarify the whole thing before my character acquired the ability. Okay, so they finally clarified the hit points issue (well, until Customer Service got in on the act) and I still have questions about it all.

For example, let’s say my elven druid wants to Wildshape into a wolf. The druid has base physical stats of Str 15, Dex 19, and Con 15 (Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 14) and a standard MM wolf has base physical stats of Str 13, Dex 15, and Con 15.

Now, after referencing Wildshape, Polymorph and Alter Self, I think I have a medium sized animal with a +2 Initiative, move 50ft, AC 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), BAB +3, Grapple +4, Atk (bite) +4 (1d6+1), SA Trip, Saves of Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +9, and he gets the racial bonus feat of Track.

I don’t think he gets the wolf’s Weapon Focus (bite), the low light vision, or Scent.

Now, what I’m not really sure about is:

1. Does he lose the Elven low light vision? ( I think so, but doesn’t it seem odd to Wildshape from a creature with LLV to an animal that usually has LLV and lose the ability?)

2. I don’t think he gets the wolf’s skill set (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival), but keeps his own skills and modify them for the new physical attributes?

3. Does he keep the Elven racial bonus to Listen, Search and Spot? (I don’t think so)

Any comments?

kpdezend · Mar 18, 2004

Legildur said:
I don’t think he gets the wolf’s Weapon Focus (bite), the low light vision, or Scent.

1. Does he lose the Elven low light vision? ( I think so, but doesn’t it seem odd to Wildshape from a creature with LLV to an animal that usually has LLV and lose the ability?)

2. I don’t think he gets the wolf’s skill set (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival), but keeps his own skills and modify them for the new physical attributes?

3. Does he keep the Elven racial bonus to Listen, Search and Spot? (I don’t think so)
QUOTE]

At some point when I have hours to type, I'm gonna write a friggin' essay on why wildshaping should give you all of the abilities of the animal, but that is for another time. I will do what I remember from memory though.

You get the combat oriented traits, so I would think that you do get the Weapon Focus (bite), but not low light vision or Scent. (Again, I think not getting the low light vision or scent is dumber than getting the Weapon Focus).

My group plays that you do get the wolf’s (/whatever animals) racial bonus to skills.

Since you are a new race, you do not get the Elven racial bonuses (in my opinion and in my group).

You raise an interesting point about losing the low-light even though you are switching to a form that has the trait.

- Kent -

Will · Mar 18, 2004

I'm strongly of the opinion that polymorph should grant 'natural' exceptional abilities, including scent, race skill bonuses, low light vision, but not fast healing and the like.

As a simple rule, I'd say that any ability found among any animal is appropriate. They are within the bounds of reason, IMO.

Diirk · Mar 18, 2004

kpdezend said:
At some point when I have hours to type, I'm gonna write a friggin' essay on why wildshaping should give you all of the abilities of the animal, but that is for another time. I will do what I remember from memory though.

You get the combat oriented traits, so I would think that you do get the Weapon Focus (bite), but not low light vision or Scent. (Again, I think not getting the low light vision or scent is dumber than getting the Weapon Focus).

My group plays that you do get the wolf’s (/whatever animals) racial bonus to skills.

Since you are a new race, you do not get the Elven racial bonuses (in my opinion and in my group).

You raise an interesting point about losing the low-light even though you are switching to a form that has the trait.

- Kent -

You don't get the weapon focus (bite) as its a feat the wolf gained from its hit dice.. not a racial bonus feat, not an exceptional attack. You get low light vision because your type changes to animal, and traits of the animal type include low light vision. You don't get scent.

You get the racial bonuses to skills, however these aren't the same as the skills in the animals stat block.. racial bonuses are where it says things like a brown bear gets +4 racial bonus to swimming etc (generally in descriptive text below the stat blocks). Wolves get a racial bonus to survival when tracking due to scent.. however you don't get the scent, so I'd say you don't get that racial bonus either.

And you're correct, no elven racial bonuses anymore.

Legildur · Mar 18, 2004

Diirk said:
You don't get the weapon focus (bite) as its a feat the wolf gained from its hit dice.. not a racial bonus feat, not an exceptional attack. You get low light vision because your type changes to animal, and traits of the animal type include low light vision. You don't get scent.

You get the racial bonuses to skills, however these aren't the same as the skills in the animals stat block.. racial bonuses are where it says things like a brown bear gets +4 racial bonus to swimming etc (generally in descriptive text below the stat blocks). Wolves get a racial bonus to survival when tracking due to scent.. however you don't get the scent, so I'd say you don't get that racial bonus either.

And you're correct, no elven racial bonuses anymore.

Thanks Diirk. I agree about WF (bite).

But I'm not convinced about the LLV as it is clearly listed as a special quality under the wolf entry. Also, Polymorph states "..but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form..." and from Alter Self "You do not gain any special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth." and "You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form."

And yeah, I deliberately ignored the +4 racial bonus to Survival when using Scent, as he doesn't gain the Sccent ability.

So, he loses the +2 racial bonus to Listen, Search and Spot, the +2 racial bonus to saves versus Enchantment spells or effects, the immunity to magical sleep, and the free search check for passing within 5 ft of a secret or concealed door?

jgsugden · Mar 18, 2004

Andy Collins, lead designer of the 3.5 PHB, on his boards and in the long 3.5 preview thread on the WotC boards, has gone on record as saying that when you use a polymorph effect, you gain the traits associated with the type for the creature form you adopt (except spell-like and supernatural abilities).

http://pub36.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm12.showMessage?topicID=214.topic

Druids in animal form via wildshape gain the animal traits of low-light vision, proficiency with natural weapons, the need to eat, the need to sleep and the need to breathe. They also gain all extraordinary attacks of the specific animal form.

Druids in plant form via wildshape gain low-light vision, immunity to mind-affecting effects, immunity to poison, immunity to sleep effects, immunity to paralysis, immunity to polymorph, immunity to stunning, immunity to critical hits/sneak attacks, proficiency with natural weapons, the ability to avoid sleeping, the need to eat, and the need to breathe. They also gain all the extraordinary attacks of the specific plant creature.

To answer your questions:

1.) He loses elven low-light vision, but gains it back from the animal type.

2.) He keeps his own skill points, but applies the wolf's modifiers for physical skills.

3.) He does gain racial skill bonuses and bonus feats from the wolf. So, he gains track as well as the skill bonuses you mentioned.

Legildur · Mar 18, 2004

Okay I checked Andy's board you linked above and had a laugh a the following:

Custserv has consistently been giving inconsistent answers regarding polymorph, but a recent inquiry stated that some sort of broad clarification (errata/faq/etc ...) was on the way....

That was posted by you on Oct 27th last year

Considering how much angst this issue generates, you'd have thought that they'd have had a sorted answer by now... Very poor.

mikebr99 · Mar 18, 2004

What's this???

A wildshape thread without the HP change (due to new CON) debate?

Mike

Majere · Mar 18, 2004

The "traits" issue is one of those things where WotC actually had a good idea, but its caused a little confusion (as usual).
When you change type you gain all the traits of that type, so if you change to an elemental you gain all the immunities associated with being an elemental.
You do not gain any OTHER supernatural traits.

The confusion come in because often stats blocks list type associated traits to save you haveing to loook up (for instance) animal traits every time you play an animal. Their inclusion does not mean you dont gain the type-assiciated traits.

mikebr99 · Mar 18, 2004

Majere said:
When you change type you gain all the traits of that type, so if you change to an elemental you gain all the immunities associated with being an elemental.
You do not gain any OTHER supernatural traits.

Not true... this is a wildshape thread, You do get all of the elemental's extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities... and feats. But retains your type.

At 16th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a Small, Medium, or Large elemental (air, earth, fire, or water) once per day. These elemental forms are in addition to her normal wild shape usage. In addition to the normal effects of wild shape, the druid gains all the elemental’s extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities. She also gains the elemental’s feats for as long as she maintains the wild shape, but she retains her own creature type.

Mike

Wildshape clarification

Legildur

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kpdezend

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Will

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Diirk

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Legildur

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jgsugden

Legend

Legildur

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mikebr99

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Majere

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mikebr99

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