Populating the world

blargney the second · Apr 22, 2004

I'm working on a system for populating the world with NPCs that make sense in the d20 rules context.

Basic assumptions:
1) Everybody in the world goes through the following phases during their life, barring only premature death: youth, young adult, adult, aged adult, elderly.

2) Most people tend to be pretty decent at their profession by the time they're an adult. Exceptions to this rule are usually people that have some significant deficiency, or at the other end, people that have a particular talent for the job. This means adults generally have 3 levels in their class, and an average of 10 in their abilities.

3) In game terms, I don't want any NPC to exceed 5 levels of NPC classes - that is for PC classes only. Levels do not accumulate automatically with age. They are an indication of the challenges that that person has faced within their particular milieu. (A backwater village blacksmith who spends 70 years making horseshoes hasn't faced enough real challenges to merit more than 3 levels.)

4) The usual ranks are apprentice, journeyman, and master. These equate typically to levels 1-3. A regional master would be level 4, and a national master 5. Exceptions can exist, such as the master/owner of a shop having only 3 levels, while one of his particularly talented journeymen has 4.

5) By the same token, levels 1-3 usually indicate the age of the person: youth, young adult, and adult respectively. Again, exceptions can apply - an ambitious youth can be level 2, while an apathetic adult can likewise be level 2. It depends mostly on how driven they are to succeed.

6) These same scales apply to commoners, experts, aristocrats, adepts, and warriors. Warriors usually require some training regimen to attain level 3 as adults, and as such warriors in the same locale will tend to use the sam weapons and techniques (feats).

I think that's about it for now, I just wanted to write those ideas out rather than leave them floating unanchored inmy head!

-blarg

pensiv · Apr 23, 2004

Sounds good blarg. Thanks for sharing your headspace.
Are you going to follow up as your idea develops?

MavrickWeirdo · Apr 23, 2004

blargney the second said:
I'm working on a system for populating the world with NPCs that make sense in the d20 rules context.

Basic assumptions:
1) Everybody in the world goes through the following phases during their life, barring only premature death: youth, young adult, adult, aged adult, elderly.

2) Most people tend to be pretty decent at their profession by the time they're an adult. Exceptions to this rule are usually people that have some significant deficiency, or at the other end, people that have a particular talent for the job. This means adults generally have 3 levels in their class, and an average of 10 in their abilities.

3) In game terms, I don't want any NPC to exceed 5 levels of NPC classes - that is for PC classes only. Levels do not accumulate automatically with age. They are an indication of the challenges that that person has faced within their particular milieu. (A backwater village blacksmith who spends 70 years making horseshoes hasn't faced enough real challenges to merit more than 3 levels.)

4) The usual ranks are apprentice, journeyman, and master. These equate typically to levels 1-3. A regional master would be level 4, and a national master 5. Exceptions can exist, such as the master/owner of a shop having only 3 levels, while one of his particularly talented journeymen has 4.

5) By the same token, levels 1-3 usually indicate the age of the person: youth, young adult, and adult respectively. Again, exceptions can apply - an ambitious youth can be level 2, while an apathetic adult can likewise be level 2. It depends mostly on how driven they are to succeed.

6) These same scales apply to commoners, experts, aristocrats, adepts, and warriors. Warriors usually require some training regimen to attain level 3 as adults, and as such warriors in the same locale will tend to use the sam weapons and techniques (feats).

I think that's about it for now, I just wanted to write those ideas out rather than leave them floating unanchored inmy head!

-blarg

It is not the way I would do it, but taking what you said as "given" I have some questions.

Do you have ages in mind for the different "life phases"?

Are you planning on using the Ageing modifiers from PHB?

I understand having average ability score of 10 (or 12 point buy) for commoners. Do you plan the same for experts, aristocrats, adepts, and warriors?

(So then your Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandfather was blargney the year?)

blargney the second · Apr 24, 2004

omokage said:
Sounds good blarg. Thanks for sharing your headspace.
Are you going to follow up as your idea develops?

Yep! What I wanted was a system that allows me to work by feel. I just wrote up an encounter for the front gate to the city: an unruly barbarian doesn't allow his weapon be peace-bonded by the guards. I want the barb to be able to whoop the guards fairly easily, giving the PCs the option to step in.

So, off the top of my head, I want a sergeant, a couple of somehwat inexperienced guards who have worked their way through boot camp and some field manoeuvers, and one non-combatant clerk who assesses taxes.

That gives me:
1 sergeant, adult dwarf ftr 3
2 halberdiers, young adult humans war 2
1 tax clerk, adult hobbit exp 3
1 unruly tribesman, half-elf brb 5

The idea is to give me tools that will help me bring the encounter to life with interesting details, rather than leave it bland. The simple fact of deciding that the halberdiers are young let me know what level they ought to be by default.

Preparation is still kind of long as it's my first time DMing, but at least I feel confident that the material I'm prepping is going to be interesting! NPC Essentials is helping a lot with figuring out what really needs to be done right away and what doesn't.

-blarg

blargney the second · Apr 24, 2004

MavrickWeirdo said:
It is not the way I would do it, but taking what you said as "given" I have some questions.

Do you have ages in mind for the different "life phases"?

Are you planning on using the Ageing modifiers from PHB?

I understand having average ability score of 10 (or 12 point buy) for commoners. Do you plan the same for experts, aristocrats, adepts, and warriors?

(So then your Great-Great-Great-Great-Grandfather was blargney the year?)

The ages I have in mind so far:
- Youth: 1-14
- Young adult: 15-20
- Adult: 21-??
Then probably just go with the PHB ages thereafter.

I intend to use the aging modifiers as a general rule to keep in mind when developing characters, rather than a specific rule to be applied in each case. In other words, if I design an old adult, I'll keep in mind that his stats have been affected by his age, similar to the whole rest of his life, and design his stats accordingly.

Btw, when I say "average of 10", I really just mean that each NPC will have 60 points distributed to each of the stats. 12 point buy is probably a good way of keeping that balanced, thanks for the reminder!

(Yep, and his dad was blargney the decade. It's something like a Zaphod Beeblebrox iteration.)

-blarg

DarkMaster · Apr 24, 2004

blargney the second said:
I'm working on a system for populating the world with NPCs that make sense in the d20 rules context.

Basic assumptions:
1) Everybody in the world goes through the following phases during their life, barring only premature death: youth, young adult, adult, aged adult, elderly.

2) Most people tend to be pretty decent at their profession by the time they're an adult. Exceptions to this rule are usually people that have some significant deficiency, or at the other end, people that have a particular talent for the job. This means adults generally have 3 levels in their class, and an average of 10 in their abilities.

3) In game terms, I don't want any NPC to exceed 5 levels of NPC classes - that is for PC classes only. Levels do not accumulate automatically with age. They are an indication of the challenges that that person has faced within their particular milieu. (A backwater village blacksmith who spends 70 years making horseshoes hasn't faced enough real challenges to merit more than 3 levels.)

4) The usual ranks are apprentice, journeyman, and master. These equate typically to levels 1-3. A regional master would be level 4, and a national master 5. Exceptions can exist, such as the master/owner of a shop having only 3 levels, while one of his particularly talented journeymen has 4.

5) By the same token, levels 1-3 usually indicate the age of the person: youth, young adult, and adult respectively. Again, exceptions can apply - an ambitious youth can be level 2, while an apathetic adult can likewise be level 2. It depends mostly on how driven they are to succeed.

6) These same scales apply to commoners, experts, aristocrats, adepts, and warriors. Warriors usually require some training regimen to attain level 3 as adults, and as such warriors in the same locale will tend to use the sam weapons and techniques (feats).

I think that's about it for now, I just wanted to write those ideas out rather than leave them floating unanchored inmy head!

-blarg

I don't agree with limiting to 5 level your NPC. This mean that the best armorer in the country who is exceptionally talented and works 16 hours a day making the most complicated armor for the most exotic people at the end of his life cannot have more than craft(armorsmith) 10-11, and the dwarf fighter in my campaign will get that around level 7-8 and he doesn't spend 10% of his time practising the craft.

Also a very few guard will ever reach level 3 warrior they either die or retire before, very few people will stay in the military for more than 20 years.

Also I would define challenge better, for an armorer a good challenge is making a broided full plate, for a fighter is fighting an equal or more skilled opponent, ect anyway in my view. So the merchant who spend his life on the road selling millions of gp of stuff to kings and duke will be much higher than level 5 expert.

I agree about the feats and skills for the soldiers, I do the same. In my world most people are level 1 commoner, a 70 years old man who spent his entire life making shoe horses and cart wheel in the same village is a level 1 commoner or expert with max rank in his profession. If the same man would have travelled the world working 10 years making starting different business showing the arts to students, making special request for various king and then would settle down would probably be a 10-12 level expert if not more.

Same for the roman soldier who would have fight various campaing through out his 20 year military service and still be alive he could be a 15-20 level warrior easily. but the one who spend his entire carreer in a camp waiting for reinforcement would only be a 1 or 2 level warrior.

You get the idea

blargney the second · Apr 24, 2004

DarkMaster said:
I don't agree with limiting to 5 level your NPC. This mean that the best armorer in the country who is exceptionally talented and works 16 hours a day making the most complicated armor for the most exotic people at the end of his life cannot have more than craft(armorsmith) 10-11, and the dwarf fighter in my campaign will get that around level 7-8 and he doesn't spend 10% of his time practising the craft.

That's actually ok with me!

With 5th level, 14 Int, Skill Focus, and a +2/+2 skill feat, a truly dedicated craftsman could get up to +15. (+17 if he's a dwarf.) That's the kind of bonus that says "best armorer in the country" to me!

Besides, in my setup all an NPC has to do to get over the level 5 ceiling is take PC classes. They're there to allow a character to gain abilities beyond the norm.

Also a very few guard will ever reach level 3 warrior they either die or retire before, very few people will stay in the military for more than 20 years.

Sure they'll get to level 3! All they have to do is go through boot camp, train with their regiment for a year or two, then go on active duty for another few years. I figure that's all worth about 3000 xp, and none of it is excessively hazardous to their health.

However, if they do get into combat, they'll simply go up through NPC levels faster (and they can get over level 3). Good call on the 20 year retirement, though - I'll include that in my campaign material!

Also I would define challenge better, for an armorer a good challenge is making a broided full plate, for a fighter is fighting an equal or more skilled opponent, ect anyway in my view. So the merchant who spend his life on the road selling millions of gp of stuff to kings and duke will be much higher than level 5 expert.

Call it a house rule if you want, but I just don't want normal people to have more than 5 levels of NPC classes. At the same time, I'm semi-arbitrarily deciding that most people are level 3, rather than 1. The idea here isn't to use the classic D&D XP system where killing stuff directly makes you more powerful. I just want a way to have normal people not get killed by pissed-off kittens. I don't really care how they got their XP, but a general indication of the type of life they've led.

Unless some Sluggy Freelance-type kitten stuff happens.

Hmm. *write* *write* *write*

I agree about the feats and skills for the soldiers, I do the same. In my world most people are level 1 commoner, a 70 years old man who spent his entire life making shoe horses and cart wheel in the same village is a level 1 commoner or expert with max rank in his profession. If the same man would have travelled the world working 10 years making starting different business showing the arts to students, making special request for various king and then would settle down would probably be a 10-12 level expert if not more.

Same for the roman soldier who would have fight various campaing through out his 20 year military service and still be alive he could be a 15-20 level warrior easily. but the one who spend his entire carreer in a camp waiting for reinforcement would only be a 1 or 2 level warrior.

You get the idea

Yep, just a different way of looking at it!

-blarg

DarkMaster · Apr 24, 2004

blargney the second said:
Call it a house rule if you want, but I just don't want normal people to have more than 5 levels of NPC classes. At the same time, I'm semi-arbitrarily deciding that most people are level 3, rather than 1. The idea here isn't to use the classic D&D XP system where killing stuff directly makes you more powerful. I just want a way to have normal people not get killed by pissed-off kittens. I don't really care how they got their XP, but a general indication of the type of life they've led.

It's your campaign your the boss, I was just giving some comments, but in my world boot camp will just make you a 1st level warrior, after that field experience and more intense training will get you up in level.

Concerning the old blacksmith the reason why I don't give more than one level is because after his first year of work he almost saw it all and will almost not learn anything in the rest of his life. And your solution is good if you don't want people to be killed by a single sword blow, The only problem I see with that is that the young 1st level warrior will die more easily than the elderly blacksmith. But that problem is present whatever the solution. I don't see why the 10 level blacksmith should have on average 35 hp.

blargney the second · Apr 24, 2004

Thanks for the reply, DarkMaster!

DarkMaster said:
It's your campaign your the boss, I was just giving some comments, but in my world boot camp will just make you a 1st level warrior, after that field experience and more intense training will get you up in level.

I think we're pretty close to being on the same page here.

The main difference is that I want it to be completely normal for a warrior with regular training and a couple of years work hanging out at the front gate to get to level 3. No field experience necessary, no particularly intense training. (Mind you, I take active guard duty to mean that he has to bust a few heads in tavern brawls, stand outside for hours in crappy weather...) Additionally, the same warrior will never get over level 3 unless something unusual occurs: combat, hardcore training, etc.

Concerning the old blacksmith the reason why I don't give more than one level is because after his first year of work he almost saw it all and will almost not learn anything in the rest of his life.

The challenge isn't necessarily inherent in the difficulty of the work itself - it could be very easy to learn to make baskets, but difficult to make 30 a day when a rush (pardon the pun) occurs. You learn a lot in periods of intense pressure.

And your solution is good if you don't want people to be killed by a single sword blow, The only problem I see with that is that the young 1st level warrior will die more easily than the elderly blacksmith.

Again, that's perfectly fine with me - a child should be much easier to kill than a man who has spent his whole life beating metal into various shapes! It's *very* demanding physical work being a blacksmith.

But that problem is present whatever the solution. I don't see why the 10 level blacksmith should have on average 35 hp.

Exactly the sort of situation I'm hoping to avoid by placing a cap at level 5!

-blarg

DarkMaster · Apr 25, 2004

blargney the second said:
The challenge isn't necessarily inherent in the difficulty of the work itself - it could be very easy to learn to make baskets, but difficult to make 30 a day when a rush (pardon the pun) occurs. You learn a lot in periods of intense pressure.

Agree, at the begining you learn a lot but after a few intense period you don't gain much from these situation. For the last three years I have been in charged of a design maintenance team for a telecom product. I don't know if you are aware of the intense stress that you can get from a customer who tell you that there customers cannot make call anymore. You have to think fast, and know your system. The first year I learned so much, the second was good but I focus more on getting the speed up to speed with the knowledge and the third I almost learned nothing (That is why I changed position

). Let's say that I am an expert, well I would say that 75% of my XP were made during the first year and 24% the second and only 1% the last one. Now I feel that if I want to progress quicker in my skills I need to see new things. Now I started managing a small design team and I feel I will earn much more XP there than by staying at my old job.
And that is how I can explain that somebody can go expert 10 in 5 years and other will stay expert 2 for the rest of their life. Being exposed to different challenges within the scope of your skill should allow you to climb quickly the level ladder.

blargney the second said:
Exactly the sort of situation I'm hoping to avoid by placing a cap at level 5!

This aspect actually bugs me. I want to have expert with 14 ranks in their craft but I don't automatically want them to have 35-40 hp and fight as 11 level cleric, why would someone specialised in painting should be able to kill an ogre.

Populating the world

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