Level Independent XP Awards

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

[edit]Upper Krust's fantastic PDF, from which so much of this thread is drawn, is foundhere. That being said, I encourage folks to go down to post 9 of this thread to see a simpler (and imho better) variant which does away with EL calculations altogether.[/edit]

This is a variant of the rules given on pages 213-214 of WotC's Unearthed Arcana. I've incorporated material from Appendix II of Upper Krust's Immortal's Handbook.

As described in that appendix, a monster's challenge rating (CR) is converted to an Encounter Level (EL) according to the following chart:

Code:

[COLOR=Red]CR      EL      CR       EL       CR       EL[/COLOR]

1        1      4        9        32       21
2        5      5        10       40       22
3        7      6        11       48       23
                7        12       56       24

                8        13       64       25
                10       14       80       26
                12       15       96       27
                14       16       112      28
       
                16       17       128      29
                20       18       160      30
                24       19       192      31
                28       20       224      32

A CR 1 creature has an EL of 1, a CR 4 creature has an EL of 9, and so on. Doubling a creature's CR increases the EL by +4 (and halving a creature's CR reduces the EL by -4). Interpolate CRs that are not listed; for example a CR 18 creature is an EL 17, since 18 is between 16 and 20.

For an encounter with multiple creatures, total the CR, and add the following modifier:

Code:

# of opponents        Encounter Level Modifier
1                           EL +/-0
2                           EL -2 
3                           EL -3
4                           EL -4
6                           EL -5
8                           EL -6
12                          EL -7
16                          EL -8
24                          EL -9
32                          EL -10
48                          EL -11
64                          EL -12
96                          EL -13
128                         EL -14
192                         EL -15
256                         EL -16
384                         EL -17
512                         EL -18

And so on (each doubling is another -2 EL).

All this is described better in Upper_Krust's preview PDF, but I don't have the link handy. Sorry.

My method gives a flat XP based on the EL, and has an alternate XP chart. I'll detail that in the next post.

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

Here's his example (which uses his recalculated CRs):

1 great Wyrm Red Dragon (CR 62)
+ 3 balors (CR 33 x 3)
+10 Vrock (CR 15 x10)
+14 Babau (CR 10 x 14)
Total CR 451 = EL 36, -9 EL (28 opponents).

To find out the EL of CR 451, you have to extend the table I posted in the first post. But CR 451 is a little over twice as much as CR 224, so the EL is four more than 32.

Anyways, here is the XP by EL:

Code:

[Color=RED]EL          XP[/color]
1           75
2           100
3           150
4           225
5           300
6           450
7           600
8           900
9           1,200
10          1,800
11          2,400
12          3,600
13          4,800
14          7,200
15          9,600
16          14,400
17          19,200
18          28,800
19          38,400
20          57,600
21          76,800
22          115,200
23          153,600
24          230,400
25          307,200
26          460,800
27          614,400
28          921,600
29          1,228,800
30          1,843,200
31          2,457,600
32          3,686,400
33          4,915,200
34          7,372,800
35          9,830,400
36          14,745,600

Remember to divide the xp among all the people in the party!

And this is the Level/Required XP table:

Code:

[Color=RED]Level          Required XP[/color]
1               0
2               1,000
3               3,000
4               7,000
5               13,000
6               21,000
7               33,000
8               48,000
9               68,000
10              92,000
11              120,000
12              152,000
13              192,000
14              240,000
15              296,000
16              360,000
17              432,000
18              512,000
19              600,000
20              696,000
21              800,000
22              912,000
23              1,032,000
24              1,160,000
25              1,304,000
26              1,464,000
27              1,640,000
28              1,832,000
29              2,040,000
30              2,264,000
31              2,504,000
32              2,760,000

As in the UA variant, XP costs for crafting magic items and casting spells increases.

Spell level
1st to 3rd: multiplier x1
4th to 6th: multiplier x2
7th to 8th: multiplier x4
9th+: multiplier x5

In other words, just like in UA, except the highest amount is x5 instead of x10. I think the magic item xp costs would be the same, too.

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

I should mention too that if you don't use Upper Krust's revised CRs, a quick and dirty conversion is to multiply WotC CRs by 1.5 (multiply CR x2 for dragons). So a balor (WotC CR =20) becomes 30 in this system. A Great Red Wyrm Dragon (WotC CR = 26) becomes 52.

This is also the method to follow if you use monsters which Upper Krust has not converted. His appendix gives a detailed method for calculating CRs, but it takes some getting used to.

Plane Sailing · Apr 28, 2004

Out of interest, does this method of assigning xp from UA address the issue of the xp penalty for wishes and related things?

It seems to me that xp components of spells should probably be multiplied by the level at which the spell first becomes available to work out the actual xp cost (to maintain parity), so limited wish = 300x13 = 3900xp, wish = 5000x17 = 85,000xp.

- if you don't do something like this, wishes are going to become freebies!

Thanee · Apr 28, 2004

Erm... about the table you based your system on (I suppose that's from UK's work).

Is CR the same CR as in the MM and EL still the average party level equivalent for a 4-person-party to get a moderately challenging encounter?

How can a CR 5 creature be a suitable challenge for a 10th level party!? (just one example)

This must work somewhat different, I suppose...

Bye
Thanee

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

Thanee,

The CR is from UK's revision. A close approximation is to multiply core rules CRs by 1.5, or x2 for dragons.

Thanee said:
How can a CR 5 creature be a suitable challenge for a 10th level party!? (just one example)

No, you use a CR 10 critter to challenge a 10th level party. CR 10 turns out to be EL 14 (as given by the chart). A CR 11 is also EL 14, so you might want to give the party a mixture of CR 10 and CR 11 encounters. That's the easy way of looking at it.

A harder way of looking at it is to take a party of four 10th level PCs. According the revised Level/XP chart (second chart in the second post), a 10th level character has 92,000 xp, and needs 120,000 xp to get to 11th level. That's 28,000 xp per person, or 112,000 xp per group. Divided by 13.33 you get 8,400 xp per encounter. That's between an EL 14 encounter (which yields 7,200 xp) and an EL 15 encounter (which yields 9,600 xp). So the average encounter has to be a bit higher than CR 10. You need 15.56 EL 14 encounters for them to go up.

A slight wrinkle in the system is that the standard array gives a +1 CR to player characters. So a 10th level party really needs a CR 11 challenge. But CR = party level is close enough.

A hard way of calculating the encounter appropriate to a 10th level party is as follows: calculate the party's EL as if they were monsters. The total of their CR is 44 (they are each CR 11, remember). That's between 40 and 48, so they are EL 22 (and halfway to 23, so you might say 22.5). Subtract 4 for being a 4 member group (2nd chart of the first post) and you get EL 18. An EL 18 encounter should use up all the party's resources, and kill them half the time. To get a 50% encounter, subtract 2 from the EL. To get a 25% encounter subtract 4 total. EL 18-4 is EL 14, which is an average encounter for a 10th level party.

We dropped a decimal when calculating their EL; the party's EL is probably closer to 18.5, and so a 25% encounter would be EL 14.5; a little more than EL 14. Which agrees with the first two methods.

The great thing about UK's system is you can calculate when an encounter is too hard for a party.

Say you take the approximation that a CR 10 or CR 11 encounter is appropriate for a 10th level party. That's EL 14, which should use up 25% of their resources. Adding +2 to the EL should be an encounter which uses up 50% of their resources; that's EL 16, whcih corresponds to CR 14 or CR 15. A really tough encounter, one that uses up 100% of their resources, would be EL 18; a CR 20 encounter.

Again, you want to use Upper Krust's CR calculations in your formulas. Core rules works well when the CR is very close to the party's level, as in the case for 25% encounters for mid level groups, but doesn't work as well when you are looking at 50% or 100% challenges, or when dealing with high level groups.

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

Plane Sailing said:
Out of interest, does this method of assigning xp from UA address the issue of the xp penalty for wishes and related things?

It seems to me that xp components of spells should probably be multiplied by the level at which the spell first becomes available to work out the actual xp cost (to maintain parity), so limited wish = 300x13 = 3900xp, wish = 5000x17 = 85,000xp.

- if you don't do something like this, wishes are going to become freebies!

Actually, I addressed this at the end of my second post:

Cheiromancer said:
Spell level
1st to 3rd: multiplier x1
4th to 6th: multiplier x2
7th to 8th: multiplier x4
9th+: multiplier x5

In other words, just like in UA, except the highest amount is x5 instead of x10. I think the magic item xp costs would be the same, too.

Note how much XP it costs a character to go from, say, 20th level to 21st level; 800,000 - 696,000 = 104,000 xp. That's 5 times the core rule cost of 20,000 xp. (to 210,000 xp from 190,000 xp) A wish should therefore cost 5 times as much.

Note that in UA the numbers are whacked. Going from 20th to 21st level costs 1,000,000 xp, which is 50 times as much as in core rules. But a wish only costs 10 times as much. Proporionately that is 5 times cheaper! And it gets worse as you get to higher and higher levels.

The core rules CR mechanic doesn't work at high levels- that's why Upper Krust developed his system. The UA fixed xp system is based on the core rules, and breaks down totally as character level gets into the high teens or above.

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

I think the whole business about ELs might be unnecessary- you can base xp awards on the individual critters. I need to run some calculations, but the early indications are promising.

For instance take that first example that Upper Krust uses:

1 great red wyrm (CR 62)
+3 balors (3 x CR 33)
+10 vrock (10 x CR 15)
+14 babau (14 x CR 10)

Total CR = 451 EL 36, -9 (28 opponents) = EL 27

XP for an EL 27 is 614,400

Now look up the monsters individually

CR 62 = EL 24 (230,400 xp)
CR 33 = EL 21 (76,800 xp)
CR 15 = EL 16 (14,400 xp)
CR 10 = EL 14 (7,200 xp)

Add them up

230,400
+3 x 76,800
+10 x 14,400
+14 x 7200

Total: 705600 xp

About 13% more than the EL method. 705600 is about 30% of the way between EL 27 (614,400 xp) and EL 28 (921600). So this might work. Considering the rough approximations that the charts involve, the difference is not too bad.

I need to do some more calculations....

Cheiromancer · Apr 28, 2004

This is more or less the equivalent of thinking out loud, but here goes...

Suppose that 13.33 encounters of the same CR as a party are enough to get that party to the next level (because of the standard array, a 10th level character is CR 11; a party of four 10th level characters thus gets 13.33 CR 11 encounters). Assume that doubling the CR of an encounter quadruples the XP earned. (Which is the basis of Upper Krust's CR/EL system). Then....

Then the XP per CR chart would look like the following:

Code:

[color=Blue]CR      XP  [/color]
1	75
2	300
3	600
4	1,200
5	1,800
6	2,400
7	3,600
8	4,800
9	6,000
10	7,200
11	8,400
12	9,600
13	12,000
14	14,400
15	16,800
16	19,200
17	21,600
18	24,000
19	26,400
20	28,800
21	31,200
22	33,600
23	36,000
24	38,400
25	43,200
26	48,000
27	52,800
28	57,600
29	62,400
30	67,200
31	72,000
32	76,800
33	81,600
34	86,400
35	91,200
36	96,000
37	100,800
38	105,600
39	110,400
40	115,200
41	120,000
42	124,800
43	129,600
44	134,400
45	139,200
46	144,000
47	148,800
48	153,600
49	163,200
50	172,800
51	182,400
52	192,000
53	201,600
54	211,200
55	220,800
56	230,400
57	240,000
58	249,600
59	259,200
60	268,800
61	278,400
62	288,000
63	297,600
64	307,200
65	316,800
66	326,400
67	336,000
68	345,600
69	355,200
70	364,800
71	374,400
72	384,000
73	393,600
74	403,200
75	412,800
76	422,400
77	432,000
78	441,600
79	451,200
80	460,800
81	470,400
82	480,000
83	489,600
84	499,200
85	508,800
86	518,400
87	528,000
88	537,600
89	547,200
90	556,800
91	566,400
92	576,000
93	585,600
94	595,200
95	604,800
96	614,400
97	633,600
98	652,800
99	672,000
100	691,200

The level/xp chart remains unchanged, but I'll reprint it up to level 100. (Technically it should be 1000 xp greater from level 8 on, but I think the numbers look nicer the way they are).

Code:

[color=Blue]Level   Required XP[/color]
1	0
2	1,000
3	3,000
4	7,000
5	13,000
6	21,000
7	33,000
8	48,000
9	68,000
10	92,000
11	120,000
12	152,000
13	192,000
14	240,000
15	296,000
16	360,000
17	432,000
18	512,000
19	600,000
20	696,000
21	800,000
22	912,000
23	1,032,000
24	1,160,000
25	1,304,000
26	1,464,000
27	1,640,000
28	1,832,000
29	2,040,000
30	2,264,000
31	2,504,000
32	2,760,000
33	3,032,000
34	3,320,000
35	3,624,000
36	3,944,000
37	4,280,000
38	4,632,000
39	5,000,000
40	5,384,000
41	5,784,000
42	6,200,000
43	6,632,000
44	7,080,000
45	7,544,000
46	8,024,000
47	8,520,000
48	9,032,000
49	9,576,000
50	10,152,000
51	10,760,000
52	11,400,000
53	12,072,000
54	12,776,000
55	13,512,000
56	14,280,000
57	15,080,000
58	15,912,000
59	16,776,000
60	17,672,000
61	18,600,000
62	19,560,000
63	20,552,000
64	21,576,000
65	22,632,000
66	23,720,000
67	24,840,000
68	25,992,000
69	27,176,000
70	28,392,000
71	29,640,000
72	30,920,000
73	32,232,000
74	33,576,000
75	34,952,000
76	36,360,000
77	37,800,000
78	39,272,000
79	40,776,000
80	42,312,000
81	43,880,000
82	45,480,000
83	47,112,000
84	48,776,000
85	50,472,000
86	52,200,000
87	53,960,000
88	55,752,000
89	57,576,000
90	59,432,000
91	61,320,000
92	63,240,000
93	65,192,000
94	67,176,000
95	69,192,000
96	71,240,000
97	73,352,000
98	75,528,000
99	77,768,000
100	80,072,000

Now according to this chart, Upper Krust's example works out like this:

1 Great Red Wyrm is CR 62 = 288,000 xp
Each Balor is CR 33 = 81,600 xp
Each Vrock is CR 15 = 16,800 xp
Each Babau is CR 10 = 7,200 xp

Add them up:

288,000
+3 x 81,600
+10 x 16,800
+14 x 7,200

Total: 772,800 xp

In the EL system I posted previously, this is almost exactly halfway between an EL 27 and an EL 28. Which seems about right.

Ooh! Something else that's neat; Upper Krust's suggest PC wealth is 100 gp x level cubed. i.e. 800 gp at level 2, 2700 gp at level 3, 6400 gp at level 4, and so on.

That is very, very close to the total xp that a character of those levels possesses; xp is a bit higher early on, and drops to eighty some percent of the suggested wealth later on. So in this system treasure can be linked to the xp value of a monster on approximately a 1:1 basis.

That is a very happy coincidence!

Upper_Krust · Apr 30, 2004

Hey Cheiromancer mate!

Sorry for the delay, the boards wouldn't let me in last night.

Anyway, very interesting ideas. I am wondering how much we can boil down the bulk of the rules to simplify anything further.

Level Independent XP Awards

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