improved trip and reach (again?)

I tried looking for this in old pages first, I am sure someone has asked about it before, but no luck.
PC's feats - spiked chain, combat reflexes, expertise, improved trip, finess,
str 16 dex 20 bab +5
so touch attack for trip = +10 (+5 BAB,+5dx)
opposed strength roll = +9 (+3 str,+4 improved trip,+2 chain)
follow up attack + 14 (vs prone target)

Basicaly he pulled down an opponent who charged him, the NPC tries to stand up, is tripped and wacked, NPC tries to stand again(2 move actions)
is tripped, and wacked again. A different npc tries to crawl away - provoking another trip which keeps him from moving, and a spanking from the chain

Does he keep geting free trips until he makes 5, and does improved trip give a free shot with each AoO?

He pretty much controls the meele battlefield.. is there a logical way for meele opponents to avoid this fate ?

and can you pull the same when you are standing behind a friend (without the
intial AoO)
I ruled HR that chains fumble on natural 1-2 (reflex sv avoids fumbles)
not sure thats balancing it any.

The way I've seen this described sounds something like this...

AoO for taking move actions happens BEFORE the move is made. So you get an AoO on a guy standing up, but he's still on the ground when you make the AoO (Remember to include the bonus for him being prone.) You can't trip him because he's already prone... So you get your AoO and he stands up.

You can't trip a guy for standing...

Evilhalfling said:

I tried looking for this in old pages first, I am sure someone has asked about it before, but no luck.
PC's feats - spiked chain, combat reflexes, expertise, improved trip, finess,
str 16 dex 20 bab +5
so touch attack for trip = +10 (+5 BAB,+5dx)
opposed strength roll = +9 (+3 str,+4 improved trip,+2 chain)
follow up attack + 14 (vs prone target)

Basicaly he pulled down an opponent who charged him, the NPC tries to stand up, is tripped and wacked, NPC tries to stand again(2 move actions)
is tripped, and wacked again. A different npc tries to crawl away - provoking another trip which keeps him from moving, and a spanking from the chain

Does he keep geting free trips until he makes 5, and does improved trip give a free shot with each AoO?

He pretty much controls the meele battlefield.. is there a logical way for meele opponents to avoid this fate ?

and can you pull the same when you are standing behind a friend (without the
intial AoO)
I ruled HR that chains fumble on natural 1-2 (reflex sv avoids fumbles)
not sure thats balancing it any.

Click to expand...

If you have AoO you can continue to trip the guy

River is correct. It's a little counter-intuitive, but when someone has been tripped you can't re-trip them on the AoO for standing. Of course, they only get a 5' move and a single attack after standing up, so it's still a good strategy.

And you, my friend, need to put the fear of God in him with a sunderer.

Sensical or not, you can trip someone who is prone. They end up prone.

However, you only get one AOO due to the act of standing up (AOOs, only one per triggering event). And the Trip AOO interrupts (occurs before) the person has actually stood up.

Thus, they start to get up, you trip them from prone state to prone state, they finish getting up.

Chain, Spiked: A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.
You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.
When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

Click to expand...

Why does everyone give a +2 bonus to trip with the chain?

Tactics against this: Concealment, Tumble, Spring Attack, greater or the same reach, ranged combat, spells. Send in henchmen first who draw all the AoOs. Prone Attack.

As long as this dude isn't enlarged, he will have a hard time to trip everyone all the time... and his +4 to the trip check does not apply to the countertrip attempt of the opponents... he can drop his chain though.

Tauton, you did a much better job of explaining it than I did. Thanks!

If the AoO happens before the provoking action, (ignoring, for now, the whole paradox thingy), how can you interrupt a mage's spell with an AoO?

However, you only get one AOO due to the act of standing up (AOOs, only one per triggering event). And the Trip AOO interrupts (occurs before) the person has actually stood up.

Click to expand...

Let me rephrase this for spellcasting AoOs:

"However, you only get one AOO due to the act of spellcasting (AOOs, only one per triggering event). And the AOO interrupts (occurs before) the person has actually cast."

If you can't interfere with someone standing up (drawing an AoO), how can you argue that you can interfere with someone casting a spell (drawing an AoO)?

Or, how about someone attempting to disarm the chain weilder? The disarm attempt provokes an AoO, and the defender performs his own disarm as his AoO. The attacker is now disarmed. According to the above concept of "the stand up action was never wasted", the attacker can now draw another weapon and go ahead with his disarm attempt.

The whole concept of the AoO coming completely before the action that provokes it makes no sense. As others, in other threads have stated, I firmly beleive that the AoO occurs during the provoking action, but is resovled (game mechanically) before the provoking action is resolved. That is the only way the whole system makes sense (and avoids paradoxes).

Quasqueton

Quasqueton said:

If you can't interfere with someone standing up (drawing an AoO), how can you argue that you can interfere with someone casting a spell (drawing an AoO)?
Quasqueton

Click to expand...

Because standing up doesn't require concentrating through the pain of getting hit... casting through the pain does require concentration.


Mike

Quasqueton said:

If you can't interfere with someone standing up (drawing an AoO), how can you argue that you can interfere with someone casting a spell (drawing an AoO)?

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Spells have a rule stating that an AOO (of ANY sort) can prevent the casting. Grappling has a similar rule. Getting up has no such rule. Thus, an AOO, in and of itself, does not prevent getting up. An AOO, in and of itself, DOES prevent casting or initiating grappling.

If there is not a specific rule that an AOO prevents an action, that doesn't mean preventing the action is impossible... it just means you have to find a way to make the action impossible. If you use an AOO to grapple someone as they bull rush you, the grapple happens before the bull rush... and if the grapple is successful, they can no longer bull rush you. You have prevented their action. You could also trip them, and you would prevent the bull rush. You can not bull rush while prone.

However, you can get up when you are prone. That's the whole point of getting up

Or, how about someone attempting to disarm the chain weilder? The disarm attempt provokes an AoO, and the defender performs his own disarm as his AoO. The attacker is now disarmed. According to the above concept of "the stand up action was never wasted", the attacker can now draw another weapon and go ahead with his disarm attempt.

Click to expand...

The stand up action was never wasted, because you never did anything that would prevent getting up. Disarming creates a state where the desired action is no longer possible. Tripping someone as they get up does not.

In fact, tripping someone when they try to disarm your weapon will also not prevent them... but it will give them a -4 to the disarm check.