Thanee's Ultra Modern / no Base Classes

Hi there!

Had this idea floating in my head, since the class structure of d20 modern strikes me as odd... very odd.

The general idea is to remove base classes entirely from d20 modern!
Advanced classes would still exist as normal, only the six base classes would be replaced by a single highly flexible "class", which can cover all six and a lot more.

Every character begins play with the starting feat Simple Weapon Proficiency.

At each level up, you gain a fixed number of CP (character points) to be spent on the various class benefits. You automatically gain some advancements and you have to pay for everything beyond that.

8 CP/lvl sounds like a reasonable number (w/o Defense/Reputation figured in yet).

Automatic advancement:

+0.5 BAB (fractional)
+1d6 Hit Die
3 Skill Points
low Saves
standard Action Points
(lowest Defense advancement)
(lowest Reputation advancement)

Selective advancement:

1 CP upgrade BAB to +0.75 -or- 2 CP upgrade BAB to +1.0
1 CP upgrade HD to d8 -or- 2 CP upgrade HD to d10
1 CP +2 Skill Points (maximum +6)
4 CP select a class bonus feat* (only at odd levels)
4 CP select a class talent** (only at even levels)
1 CP upgrade one save to high (fractional advancement required)
(upgrade Defense)
(upgrade Reputation)

* You need a 13+ in the corresponding ability score (i.e. Str for Strong, Dex for Fast, etc) to pick from the various class lists for bonus feats.

** You need a 15+ in the corresponding ability score (i.e. Str for Strong, Dex for Fast, etc) to pick from the various class lists for talents.

Not sure how to handle saves exactly, but with some thought, that should work basically the same way as BAB with low save progression being automatic and high save progression (fractional) being selective. Also Defense Bonus and Reputation Points have to be figured in still (but the general idea should be clear).

Maybe Feat/Talent cost could be reduced to 3 (and total number of CP/lvl reduced by 1 accordingly).

Thoughts?

Bye
Thanee

The idea is, to not break the d20 system and actually keep level advancement as is, just provide players with a whole lot more flexibility.

Unless I did some mistake (don't have the book to check precisely, so I'm going from memory), the above should be able to mimic every of the six basic classes in the book (or at least very closely, it will be a bit more difficult once saves/DB/RP are figured in, as the progressions are not as straightforward as BAB for example).

Bye
Thanee

The idea of classes in d20M always struck me as rather odd, too. They're so abstract that you might as well just go completely classless.

One thing to watch out for is excessive specialisation. It's all well and good to pump up your BAB (for example) something huge by neglecting everything else, but this makes campaign management that much more of a chore for the GM. I'd try to ensure there was a mechanic in place to keep this from happening.

I'd treat attack bonus and saves like skill ranks, rather than spending CP to change the progression. Eg your base attack bonus is 1/2 your total level, and every CP you spend on it increases your attack bonus by +1. I'd also have a similar "base skill bonus", so that a high level character is always minimally competent in all skills, but that might not always be appropriate.

I don't know what you mean by excessive specialization (well, actually I do, but don't think it applies).

Could you give an example, what you think would be bad?

Bye
Thanee

I think you will have to do long and tedious calculations: trying to make one each of the Strong, Fast, Smart, etc. classes using your system. With the same number of points (here 8) you must be able to recreate any of them with exactly 8 points. Once this is made, give purchase costs to get a d12, and to get a better save (I mean: high saves in d20 modern are in between low and high saves of D&D 3e).

Now how this classless sytem works with regard to feats and talents? That is: what if a character has no 15, or just one?

One thing is, that mostly everyone will be going for full skill points at first level, but I don't see much of a problem there, since there still are some compromises to take then, and modern characters should have a decent skill base, so that's just appropriate.

Bye
Thanee

Turanil said:

I think you will have to do long and tedious calculations: trying to make one each of the Strong, Fast, Smart, etc. classes using your system. With the same number of points (here 8) you must be able to recreate any of them with exactly 8 points.

Click to expand...

Long and tedious!? That takes about 1 minute.

Now how this classless sytem works with regard to feats and talents? That is: what if a character has no 15, or just one?

Click to expand...

Tough luck. You don't have to pick bonus feats/talents from multiple sources, but instead of remaking the whole book, I want to keep it simple and I just feel it's inappropriate to allow those bonus feats/talents without a certain minimum attribute. Maybe 15 is too high, but from my current feel, it seems about right. Could be lowered to 13, of course, if one feels it's too high.

I basically treat these lists (mostly the talents) as a way to represent gifted persons, and they surely have to be gifted with a certain level of corresponding attribute as well. An Int 8 linguist, for example, doesn't seem right.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee said:

At each level up, you gain a fixed number of CP (character points) to be spent on the various class benefits. You automatically gain some advancements and you have to pay for everything beyond that.

Click to expand...

I just have to sit here and chuckle, Thanee. Have you, by chance, already seen my attempt here to do the exact same thing for the D&D Base Classes? We've come up with nearly identical systems!

If you want to see the worksheets, they're downloadable from SSquirrel's post #88 on the 5th page. You can probably skip the AU sheet but you'll likely want to look over both the Core & Intro/Notes sheets (remember FrankTrollman?).

Automatic advancement:
+0.5 BAB (fractional)
+1d6 Hit Die
3 Skill Points
low Saves

Click to expand...

Except for the fact that I start with 4 SPs/lvl as a minimum, these are the same.

Selective advancement:
1 CP upgrade BAB to +0.75 -or- 2 CP upgrade BAB to +1.0
1 CP upgrade HD to d8 -or- 2 CP upgrade HD to d10
1 CP +2 Skill Points (maximum +6)

Click to expand...

Again, these are the same, though I've allowed up to +10 SPs/lvl.

4 CP select a class bonus feat* (only add odd levels)
4 CP select a class talent* (only add even levels)

Click to expand...

These are the same on average. My system is a bit more complicated here. I've got a cost of 5 CP for "base" or "prime" feats, and a cost of 3 CP for "expansion" feats. For example, picking up Sneak Attack +1d6 is a Base/Prime feat, because it's a new ability, so it costs 5 CP. Upgrading that to Sneak Attack +2d6 only costs an additional 3 CP because you're just expanding your base knowledge. Same thing with things like Evasion (5 CP) and Improved Evasion (3 CP).

1 CP upgrade one save to high (fractional advancement required)

Not sure how to handle saves exactly, but with some thought, that should work basically the same way as BAB with low save progression being automatic and high save progression (fractional) being selective.

Click to expand...

This is similar, too. Using the UA Fractional Bonus system a Commoner (with 3 Poor Saves) ends up with +6.67 in all three saves at level 20. If you sum those you get...+20! So what I've done is give everyone a free +1 to any save at every level (including first) to achieve this same +20 that Commoners get. You can then spend 1 CP for a +1 to any additional save, maximum of +2 to any single save at 1st level and no more than +1 increase to any single save at all later levels.

Now, I don't have d20 Modern, but I've flipped through the SRD a few times looking to see how things are different. I realize my system isn't exactly what you're looking for, but the spreadsheets are versatile enough that you should be able to modify it and play around with it if you're so inclined. I feel pretty good about the fact that I've seen very similar numbers come from a number of different directions, and you're now included, too.

Knowing how much you're into D&D from all your posts I'd certainly appreciate any thoughts & comments you have on the spreadsheets and converting all the D&D class abilities into a feat system.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

Thanee said:

Tough luck. You don't have to pick bonus feats/talents from multiple sources, but instead of remaking the whole book, I want to keep it simple and I just feel it's inappropriate to allow those bonus feats/talents without a certain minimum attribute. Maybe 15 is too high, but from my current feel, it seems about right. Could be lowered to 13, of course, if one feels it's too high.

I basically treat these lists (mostly the talents) as a way to represent gifted persons, and they surely have to be gifted with a certain level of corresponding attribute as well. An Int 8 linguist, for example, doesn't seem right.

Click to expand...

Finally it makes sense (at 15). Because whose who don't have any 15 or higher stat will finish as... npcs!

I just have noticed (was going from memory with the modern classes), that I forgot about Action Points, Defense Bonus and Reputation Points, those have to be worked in the same way as the rest, of course.

Bye
Thanee