White Wolf viciously attacks everyone who roleplays for fun

For everyone who ever accused me of either lying or being out of date when I accused of WW of being elitist; from the freshly-minted pages of the new WoD book:

"Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice-rolling than on role-playing...Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundries. Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun. "

The particular irony of this is that if ANYONE needs to be "encouraged and persuaded" and "helped" to stretch their boundaries, its people who play WW games. Not only are they apparently convinced that role-play cannot be fun, it has to be serious; but they also are hypocrites: WW games are JUST as mechanical and dice-dependent (and in sheer numbers roll more dice) than D&D. WW games are certainly not "rules lite" in the sense of Over the Edge or Feng Shui..

Everything I ever said on RPG.net is now vindicated.

So, how do all you non-WW players feel about what WW thinks of you? How do WW players explain themselves in the face of this proof now?

Nisarg

It is not any worse than wotc's attitue when they changed D&D game to sell more PHBs. They are just aiming the message at those they want to buy thier books. For WW it is elitist drama queens, for 3.nE it is for crybaby players who can't stand having thier character permanently die or fall when thier Flight gets Dispelled.

Most informed[about WW] geeky gamers know how low WW thinks of them. Thier high ups don't keep it a secret.

Sounds like an accurate description of my (ex) D&D group.

And there was a funny moment in my exalted session yesteday (soon to be played alternatingly with a D20 modern game). Our resident ninja jumped backwards down a hallway, snatching up an opponent's spear and using it as a projectile. Then the player looked up at me and said "Allright, so I probablly have a penalty for twisting in mid-air..."

To which I replied "No, that actually sounds like a one point bonus stunt to me." Different mindsets for different games with different goals.

Frankly, I think most people (myself included) could do with a little more bounds stretching. Even if they did state it a bit arrogantly, but really, at least with the people I play with "I'm right and other people suck" is a big part of the mentality. I expect that attitude from gamers. An attitude which, unfortunately, you appear to recropricate.

I mean, really, if the game's fun, do you care if the guy writing it thinks it's the best system ever, and enjoys his play style.

Or are you worried that this will just influence another generation of arrogant gamers into giving you a hard time? In which case, my sympathy.

Nisarg said:

For everyone who ever accused me of either lying or being out of date when I accused of WW of being elitist; from the freshly-minted pages of the new WoD book:

"Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice-rolling than on role-playing...Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundries. Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun. "

The particular irony of this is that if ANYONE needs to be "encouraged and persuaded" and "helped" to stretch their boundaries, its people who play WW games. Not only are they apparently convinced that role-play cannot be fun, it has to be serious; but they also are hypocrites: WW games are JUST as mechanical and dice-dependent (and in sheer numbers roll more dice) than D&D. WW games are certainly not "rules lite" in the sense of Over the Edge or Feng Shui..

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While I'm no fan of White Wolf, I don't think that paragraph qualifies as a vicious attack. Sure, it's a little pretentious, but I wouldn't call it a flat-out attack against people who prefer combat-focused games over drama-focused games.

Indeed, I really think that you're reading way too much into that quote there...

Dark Jezter said:

While I'm no fan of White Wolf, I don't think that paragraph qualifies as a vicious attack. It is a little pretentious, but I don't think it's a flat-out attack against people who prefer combat-focused games over drama-focused games.

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Why was that paragraph included? Do D&D (usually accused of catering to roll-players) books have paragraphs urging people to save those drama-players for some good hack'n'slash? Nope. D&D books recognize both playing styles as valid.

The real irony of this is that some of the worst munchkins are actually Vampire players

Numion said:

The real irony of this is that some of the worst munchkins are actually Vampire players

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I have noticed that on the last con I was.

I and another newbie to Vampirew were walking arround with handguns, while the three other players all had really really big axes with them. have I mentioned that we were in Seattle?
Curiosly, all the enemies we meet also had axes.

So much about stealth and the masquerade.....

Buckets of Dice (TM)!!

what I don't get is why they have the 'role' vs 'roll' debacle, and yet their ST system uses Buckets of Dice (TM)!!

for a system that encourages "role"..shouldn't it be easier and with less dice?

Although I'm not a WW player (played Vampire once and hated it), I don't have a problem with the quotation. As a matter of fact, I pretty much agree with it. Concerning WW games, I agree with Nisarg that they are not rules light, however, it would be unfair to not recognize that their books are written in such way that rules are placed in a secondary position in regard to the background. Agreeing with Dark Jezter, I couldn't find any vicious attack in the quote, which could be accused of be a little to much pretentious, but that's all.

nahualt said:

what I don't get is why they have the 'role' vs 'roll' debacle, and yet their ST system uses Buckets of Dice (TM)!!

for a system that encourages "role"..shouldn't it be easier and with less dice?

Click to expand...

It actually does now... compared to what it used to be. I had a kick zombie ass throwdown just to testdrive the new rules and they are pretty smooth. there may only be slightly less dice being rolled at a time, but you sure as hell make fewer rolls.