Racial skill bonuses, and the clever gnoll

Hi there.

Perhaps I'm having a mind blank (or perhaps I have a blank mind), but is there a rule which says that races with bonuses in skills (such as diplomacy and gather information for half-elves, or ride and move silent for goblins) may count these skills as class skills, and so avoid cross-class penalties?

If there is not a rule, what would be the implications of allowing this as a house-rule? I guess it would be a further boost to dwarves and elves, like they need the help, and even half-elves would get a (needed?) bonus on listen, search and spot checks. Perhaps just for non-PH races?

And, while we're on the subject of monster skills: are there (should there be) default class skills for monstrous humanoid? That still would not help the half-orc.

Where does a typical gnoll with an intelligence over 11 put his extra skills?

Is a 16 intelligence gnoll really maxed out with spot +5, listen +5 (maxed at 2 dice + 3) and 2.5 in three cross-class skills he'll never benefit from? For the 2 dice monsters, this seems a real imbalance: Bugbears have six skills, Lizardfolk three, and Gnolls only two!

Edit: while bugbears are +1 they are three-dice monsters,
and so aren't a valid comparison. My bad.


Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Kobold Stew said:

Perhaps I'm having a mind blank (or perhaps I have a blank mind), but is there a rule which says that races with bonuses in skills (such as diplomacy and gather information for half-elves, or ride and move silent for goblins) may count these skills as class skills, and so avoid cross-class penalties?

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From memory, yes - but it's only a class skill for their racial hit dice.

An elf or dwarf PC has no racial hit dice, so he has no 'class' for which it's considered a class skill, and thus it makes no difference.

-Hyp.

Here's the rule from the SRD on monster skills:

All listed skills are class skills, unless the creature has a character class (noted in the entry).

Click to expand...

So that's it: only things listed in the skills entry are class skills.

Probably a bit academic to worry about Int-16 gnolls buying cross-class skills -- there really shouldn't be many (if any) in the world, who aren't leveled up in some character class.

Thanks.

I knew that it counted as a class skill for their racial dice; it was beyond that (when the monster levels) where keeping it as a class skill would really help; which is why I used 1 hit die examples.

I think the problem with the gnoll remains, though, particularly if he goes on to get levels: if I understand you, in most classes he will lose the ability to max his spot and listen, and his 2.5s elsewhere end up being very badly innvested. At a 14 int, he can have 2 skills at 5, two cc-skills at 2 and one at 1 (ugh!) but at 12 or 16 int, he will always have an extra half point. Which means he can't even realize the benefits of having it in a skill that becomes a class skill--it always has to be something that stays cross-class once he levels, or just bite the further loss of skill points (as if he weren't handicapped enough!).

What's Bart Simpson's line? "This both sucks and blows at the same time."

Thanks, though, for your help and confirmation of what I thought I knew.

Thinking about it, we can truly measure what the system does to monsters with hit dice:

Cases 1 and 2 represent optimized gnolls, with and without class levels.

case 1. 14 Int Gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA = ECL 3

maximum number of skill points: 15
feats: 1

case 2. 14 Int gnoll-- 2d8 +1 LA +1 ranger (preferred class) = ECL 4

maximum number of skill points: 23
feats: 2 + track = 3

Case 3 represents the fewest number of skill points I can get with a one hit die monster, which is NINE skill points more than the best equivalent gnoll. Case 4 represents an average ranger (race chosen because it receives no skill bonuses; both races have -2 Int penalty).

case 3. 14 int half-orc 3rd level sorc = ECL 3 (the worst I can imagine)

maximum number of skill points: 24.
feats: 1

case 4. 14 Int half-orc 4th level ranger = ECL 4

maximum number of skill points: 56
feats: 2 + track + endurance + weap spec. = 5

The worst case one-die monster beats the best gnoll by 3 points/level at ECL 3.
The best gnoll in his preferred class will always be down 33 skill points and will always be behind in feats on any smaller race.

Don't get me wrong: our clever gnoll is a real role-play challenge, etc. But there does seem to be a problem with the lowest multiple-die monsters and their level adjustments. (Unless I am missing something here).

(Yeah, I know he has natural armour +1; Bugbears have +3, though, and lizardfolk +5 with the same LA.)

Where does this come from?

I know there was a tradition back in the 80s that Gnolls were a lazy race (Roger Moore in an early Dragon, perhaps?)--is this a holdover from that? Do gnolls not even have the chance to do well in life?

sigh.