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Boy, Does It Ever Suck Not Getting Paid!

RSKennan

Explorer
This kind of thing has only happened to me once. I wrote a book for a company that I handed in early 2006. It was never released (having nothing to do with quality) and I was never paid. And this is over $1,000 worth of writing. There definitely needs to be a place where RPG industry professionals can talk freely about this kind of thing. I've thought about starting a google group or yahoo group, but I'm not sure if it's worth the trouble.

I'd thought the same thing, and I just started a subforum on my RPG Fan site. I'm an ex-freelancer, and at one point I wrote an article for a magazine and was never paid. For unrelated reasons, I decided that I'm going to keep writing game stuff, but that I'm going to give it away.

The forum's here: http://www.4thwallgames.com/forum/. If you join, just PM i4thwall to be let into the subforum. It's invisible to non-game designers, and nothing anyone says there should leave.
 

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RSKennan

Explorer
Just finished the thread.

John- that really stinks. A lot of people love games so much that they think they have what it takes to run their own company, but they fail to understand the difficulties of running a real business. It's a shame.
 

Sadly, I think that any effort to start up a place for Freelancers to share their experiences will be met with the same sort of resistance from some corners of the industry.

Most publishers realize that there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less than they're paying the talent now or even for nothing, writers and artists willing to sign bad contracts and accept terrible treatment to get their names in print. The unscrupulous ones take advantage of that truth.

There are plenty of unscrupulous writers who will side with those unscrupulous publishers and editors, too. In public dust ups, they're the ones that attack the writers complaining about the lack of pay or poor treatment, in hopes of getting better treatment themselves; of course, they eventually get burned by the offending publishers, too. (That's not to say, of course, that the freelancer is always the abused party in these public feuds; plenty of freelancers burn publishers, too. That said, the publishers tend to be the ones with all the power, thanks to the typical industry contract.)

Writers groups are of limited value here. The National Writers Union does good work, but it's very expensive to join. Places like HWA and SFWA have grievance committees, but these can be of very limited value, in large part because the groups are run by working writers who really don't want to annoy places that might hire them. There's no equivalent group for RPG designers and efforts to create a branch of GAMA for designers/freelancers have been unsuccessful.

So you're mostly on your own. The trick is to educate yourself on contracts enough to recognize bad ones, then learn to say "no" to them.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
www.jameslowder.com
 

Klaus

First Post
Most publishers realize that there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less than they're paying the talent now or even for nothing, writers and artists willing to sign bad contracts and accept terrible treatment to get their names in print. The unscrupulous ones take advantage of that truth.

There are plenty of unscrupulous writers who will side with those unscrupulous publishers and editors, too. In public dust ups, they're the ones that attack the writers complaining about the lack of pay or poor treatment, in hopes of getting better treatment themselves; of course, they eventually get burned by the offending publishers, too. (That's not to say, of course, that the freelancer is always the abused party in these public feuds; plenty of freelancers burn publishers, too. That said, the publishers tend to be the ones with all the power, thanks to the typical industry contract.)

Writers groups are of limited value here. The National Writers Union does good work, but it's very expensive to join. Places like HWA and SFWA have grievance committees, but these can be of very limited value, in large part because the groups are run by working writers who really don't want to annoy places that might hire them. There's no equivalent group for RPG designers and efforts to create a branch of GAMA for designers/freelancers have been unsuccessful.

So you're mostly on your own. The trick is to educate yourself on contracts enough to recognize bad ones, then learn to say "no" to them.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
www.jameslowder.com
And mind you, all this applies to artists as well.
 

And mind you, all this applies to artists as well.

Absolutely! And editors and graphic designers. Any freelancers.

Of course, there are good publishers out there. If you're a freelancer thinking of working with a company, try to track down some of the writers and artists who have published with them in the past, to see if they've been paid and how their work was treated. Understand that your mileage may vary, as the saying goes, and that you should get as many opinions as possible--particularly if you're signing on for a big project.

But your best defense remains a well-written, balanced contract. (Just as a well-written, balanced contract is the best defense for a publisher, in case the freelancer fails to meet his or her obligations.)

Cheers,
Jim Lowder
 

Darrin Drader

Explorer
Well, it sucks that they never made good, but I think most of us freelancers have been there at one time or another. There is one book I worked on with the expectation that I was going to be paid in the neighborhood of $1200. My work was turned in, but my payment wasn't. I understood the circumstances behind it and I wasn't bitter or angry, rather, just wished that I was $1200 richer.

Partially because of that experience and partially because it really hurts my lifestyle when projects get canceled at the last minute or payments get delayed, I try to collect half the money before I start writing unless the publisher has a really good reputation. On that note, if any freelancers who write True20 stuff ever get the opportunity to work with Reality Deviant Publications, I'd just like to put in a GOOD word for them and mention that they do pay in full and on time.
 

dragonier

Community Supporter
Well, I have to come out with a "Me, too." I haven't been paid anything for Books of Faith: Hinduism from them. I did get some payments for Sahasra and Sahasra: The Spirit in the Spice Groves, but the last one was about a year ago. I've been very disappointed by this, as the books looked good with nice cover art. And they were nice people to work with.

Except for the whole not getting paid part.

Wow, this is some development. Donna, my wife Laura did the editing of the Books of Faith: Hinduism manuscript for Deb and Sean. In fact she did a number of projects for them over the course of about 8 or 9 months. She hasn't seen a dime for any of them.

Races of Consequence - published
Books of Faith: Hinduism - published as two books, one on Hinduism and one on Jainism
Road of the Worlds - unpublished
Cassia - unpublished

In addition Deb worked with Laura on some material for Dark Quest Games' Gods of War set in their Guiding Light series. The first book, Seth was published and the editing was completed on Morrigan. The manuscript for Odin, the third in the series, was never sent.

The work with Dog Soul was the first gig Laura got in the RPG field and it was a real boost to morale. Here was a company that was producing really interesting, high quality material, and apparently plenty of it. And as other posters have said, Deb and Sean seemed great to work with right up to the point of payment. Unfortunately we don't even know the exact amount Laura is owed since at least one of the projects was to be paid on a percentage of the sales.

What is doubly frustrating is the fact that I was the one to point out the original "help wanted" post from Dog Soul. My wife is an excellent, professionally trained editor and can tear apart a 3.5 stat block with ease (though not quite with your practiced eye John!). With the bad feelings left by this fiasco, she is unlikely to want to work with another RPG company again. The d20 publishing community has likely lost a fantastic resource. :(
 

Rafael Ceurdepyr

First Post
Wow, this is some development. Donna, my wife Laura did the editing of the Books of Faith: Hinduism manuscript for Deb and Sean. In fact she did a number of projects for them over the course of about 8 or 9 months. She hasn't seen a dime for any of them.

That really is awful. I completely sympathize. I had high hopes too, especially after seeing the high quality of the books they did put out. I've heard of this kind of thing happening to other people, but it really does sour me on spending effort for nothing. If it's any consolation, I really appreciate the great work your wife did on the editing. (Yeah, I know, not much help there.) Really a shame, because I thought we were building a very interesting setting.
 

Angellis_ater

First Post
I would suggest that Mr Cooper contact OBS (owner of RPGNow and DTRPG) and inform them that Dog Soul Publishing is selling PDFs for which they have no copyright (D-E) and two PDFs which Mr Cooper was contracted for but never paid. http://spiderforest.net/?p=40 - more people are loosing out on this, while at the same time, Dog Soul is selling these PDFs...
 
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