Castle Zagyg - The Upper Works (review)

[grodog]

As for Rob Kuntz, He did his own thing separate and in addition to what Gary did. I would have to check, but I don't believe Gary ever ran Rob's stuff, nor do I remember Rob running Gary's stuff.

Some quick corrections Treebore: Gary and Rob absolutely ran each others materials, regularly:

As to your questions, I usually made one-line notes for my duneon encounters, from around 20 to 25 of same for a typical level done on four-lines-to-the inch graph paper--a few more on five-, six, or seldom used 8-line graph paper. the other spaces were empty save for perhaps a few traps or transporter areas and the like.

I did indeed create details for the PC party on the spot, adding whatever seemed appropriate, and as Rob played and learned from me, he did the same, and when we were actively co-DMing we could often create some really exciting material on the spot, if you will.

When the encounter was elimiated I simply drew a line through it, and the place was empty for the foreseeable future. I'd give Rob the details of any session he was not at and vice versa, so we winged all of it. Sometimes a map change and encouunter kkey note of something special in nature was made, but not often. We both remembered things well, Rob very well and when necessary something was made up out of whole cloth for the sake of continuity of adventuring.

When new maps were made it was often nearly impossible to have the stairs and other connections line up with other maps, so a note or two and "fudging" served p[erfectly well. this was particularly true of the means of entering and exiting lower levels from secret locations surrounding the castle ruins.

Now you understand why the Castle Zagyg project is such a major design undertaking. If we handed over the binders containing the maps and the notes don't think even thge ablest of DMs would feel empowered to direct adventures using the materials...unless that worthy was someone who had spent many hours playing with Rob and me as DM.

I have laid out a new schematic of castle and dungeo levels based on both my original design of 13 levels plus sideadjuncts, and the "New Greyhawk Castle" that resulted when Rob and I combihned our efforts and added a lot no new level too. From that Rob will draft the level plans for the newest version of the work. Meantime, I am collecting all the most salient feature, encounters, tricks, traps, etc. for inclusion on the various levels.

So the end result will be what is essentially the best of our old work in a coherent presentation usable by all DMs, the material having all the known and yet to be discussed features of the original work that are outstanding..I hope

What I remember reading is that they each did their own stuff for their games and attached these things to each other. None of it was more collaborative then that. I don't remember them co writing anything together, other then agreeing on how to attach their respective works together.

They never co-authored any published materials together, other than the intros to WG5, but per the above quotation, their DM style was clearly collaborative and co-creative.

So unless I find statements to the contrary in the archived threads I personally do not consider anything RJK did to be an "official" part of Castle Zagyg. To me Castle Zagyg is Gary Gygax, not RJK. Otherwise the Castle would have Rob's name worked into it somewhere.

I hope the above quote helps here too? FWIW, in the CZ:UW intros (which I know you haven't read yet), Gary clearly gives Rob credit for his creations which were liberally interspersed throughout the combined castle. Those levels are not present in the CZ series (other than Dark Chateau, which certainly wasn't original), so in that sense you're quite correct that Rob's name doesn't belong there, but it certainly would be present in the combined castle version, which included The Living Room, Machine Level, Bottle City, and many other contributions.

 

[jdrakeh]

if there had been dozens of times since late 2004 saying it was coming out I would have caught most, if not all, of them.

I don't hang out at TLG but, rather, saw those claims in threads at other forums (RPGNet, mostly). Namely, back in 2005 and 2006, the claims were that the book was in final layout and/or almost ready for production. More recently it was mentioned that they were shooting for a GenCon 2008 release. Currently, TLG associate Breakdaddy says that the projected release date is GenCon 2009.

Their official stance on the CKG has been "It will be released when we are done."

That's the official stance, which I think is wise. That said, several TLG affiliates seem to have had a hard time adhering to that official position on forums other than their own.

As for Rob Kuntz, He did his own thing separate and in addition to what Gary did. I would have to check, but I don't believe Gary ever ran Rob's stuff, nor do I remember Rob running Gary's stuff.

Gary and Rob, by accounts from both, played in and ran each other's sections of Castle Greyhawk as part of the original Greyhawk Campaign.

What I remember reading is that they each did their own stuff for their games and attached these things to each other. None of it was more collaborative then that. I don't remember them co writing anything together, other then agreeing on how to attach their respective works together.

Mutually combining multiple independent works that exist within a shared setting to create one whole work that was actually played as such (regardless of whether or not it was published) is about as collaborative as "collaborative" can get. Frankly, if that's not collaborative design, then nothing is.

Otherwise the Castle would have Rob's name worked into it somewhere.

Well, perhaps you've heard of Robilar? Robilar was, by all accounts, Kuntz's player character and in-game alter-ego, named after Rob Kuntz, much as Zagig Yragerne was Gary Gygax's alter-ego. So Rob Kuntz is mentioned in the canon. Indeed, he's a rather large part of it.

 

[ghul]

Hi Jeff,

You seem to be taking my remarks far too personally and out of context. First, I did not denigrate the quality of your work. Further, my suggestion that others are, IMHO, more qualified to write for the series is no way a reflection upon the quality of said work, merely a statment of opinion that others are more qualified to write for the series (for very specific reasons that I mention above).

Hello James,

I never felt as though you were denigrating the quality of my work, nor was I offended by your opinions regarding the original designers being more qualified than me. I was trying to agree with you, actually. Let me assure you, I'm not offended in the slightest by this notion.

I did not question your punctuality but, rather, that of the publisher. While I do appreciate you trying to take responsibility for missed release dates, the reality is that the publisher, not you, bears the responsibility for meeting the release dates that they set. TLG has consistantly failed to do this with a number of different products.

Again, you seem to be taking my remarks too personally (and attributing blame to me for things that I did not type or suggest). I never held you responsible for the delays, nor did I suggest that it took you five years to develop the first installment of Castle Zagyg or that you were responsible for the 25 years of delays leading up to 2005.

I suppose I did feel this was directed at me, as I was the one married to the project for many a late and lonely night; it became my "baby" so to speak. Yes, I did indeed contribute to project delays, stating that I could complete the project in less than a year when in fact it took me a year and a half. TLG has certainly been tardy with a number of projects, but in this case, Castle Zagyg was not an in-house project for the publisher. I worked for Trigee, and sometimes I would provide updates to the publisher as to my progress. Please accept my apologies for feeling that your comments regarding the tardiness of this project were directed at me.

Best,
Jeff T.

 

[Nikosandros]

Also, waiting two years for a product seems a much better option than waiting four or more years, which appears to have been a common turn-around time for larger projects at TLG (the CKG still hasn't seen print, for example).

I think you're missing the part where the product has already been paid by the customers...

 

[jdrakeh]

I think you're missing the part where the product has already been paid by the customers...

I did see that but, frankly, it's not uncommon in today's RPG market for a publisher to accept pre-orders for a product far in advance of publication. What I do wonder is what product this refers to, however.

 

[grodog]

My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).

 

[jdrakeh]

My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).

Your memory serves correct. Looks like the preorder for both of the books in question went live just before GenCon last year.

 

[Nikosandros]

My guess is that Nikos. is referring to the PPP product pair Daemonic & Arcane and Campaign Treasures, but I'm not sure either. I didn't think those products were solicited for as early as Jan 2007 (which sounds much more like Bottle City's solicitiation timeline to me).

My mistake. I was indeed confusing the payment for those two products. I ordered Bottle City in January 2007 and I have since received it (after a rather long wait). The other one was ordered in June of the same year... so I was wrong about the two years, it's not even a year and a half. I'm clearly exceedingly impatient...

 

[Nikosandros]

I did see that but, frankly, it's not uncommon in today's RPG market for a publisher to accept pre-orders for a product far in advance of publication. What I do wonder is what product this refers to, however.

I'm not sure why you're slamming the Trolls for being late with their products (which, BTW they are all the time, you'll get no argument from me here) but you think it's OK when advance payment was received by the author...

 

[jdrakeh]

I'm not sure why you're slamming the Trolls for being late with their products (which, BTW they are all the time, you'll get no argument from me here) but you think it's OK when advance payment was received by the author...

To be clear, I'm not saying (nor have I said) that making consumers wait over a year on a product after accepting money for preorders is good business. It's not and, frankly, if I'd placed a preorder, I probably would have asked for my money back. What I did say was that waiting for two years was better than waiting for four