Off the Farm (Forked Thread: Telling a story with 4th Edition)

[Roger]

Forked from: Telling a story with 4th Edition

There is no "1st level scrub" state for the PCs. Some plots really require this (my main world/plot line I like to run starts the PCs off as pretty much "off the farm". 4e just doesn't allow that.) Stories need to _start_ more epic.

I don't think I agree with you, but I'm not sure exactly what the issue is. Can you provide an example or two of what you mean?



Cheers,
Roger

 

[cmbarona]

For nostalgia's sake, I recently cracked open my old copy of Icewind Dale, a computer game based on AD&D rules. I hadn't played it in years, and therefore hadn't started any new characters in just as long. Given my much newer experience with 4e, I could no longer fathom the fact that Wizards start with a grand total of 1 spell in their spellbook.

However, I think this example illustrates what it means to be fresh off the farm. In earlier editions of D&D, and still so in 3.5, beginning a new character was a time of vulnerability, caution, and discovery. I think it's that discovery factor that many people are searching for when they speak of a "fresh off the farm" experience.

Personally, I could do away with all that. I'm glad 4e assumes a significant level of competence in 1st level adventurers. The game starts more epic, and that's where I like it to be. But hey, to each their own.

 

[Cadfan]

Basically, some people want there to be a mechanical similarity between peasants and beginning player characters. 3e arguably had this, since a first level Fighter was only a little bit different from a first level commoner. These differences, logically speaking, were kind of large- proficient with every weapon ever used by a major military, all armor, and whatever you got with a feat in 3e, but they were also mosty in the background. The up front stats, such as hp, attack bonus, and so on, were very similar to those of a peasant.

4e is a little different. A "1st level commoner" in 4e is probably a minion. That's an incredible fragile "chassis" in comparison to that possessed by even the weakest player character.

That being said, I don't think this is truly the only thing involved in creating a "just off the farm" feel. The way the PCs relate to other entities in the world besides commoners is important. A first level 4e pc is vulnerable to being killed by a (non minion) kobold. The typical trained human guard is several levels above the first level 4e pc. Because these are the most typical opponents faced by a low level pc, I think that this comparison is as important, if not more important, than the comparison to commoners the PCs probably never fight, and who's statistics probably never enter gameplay.

If I were genuinely interested in creating a "just off the farm" feel to a 4e game, I would start the PCs off as a part of a larger organization. Perhaps an army. I would use this to emphasize the PCs comparative weakness relative to the regular soldiers, whom I would stat up at around 4th level. Then the PCs rise from nobody recruits (with potential, see, eg, their power selection) to talented regulars, to elite soldiers, and then beyond (ie, to paragon tier), would be a major theme in my campaign, and a major source of the player's sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

A related issue is the swinginess of low level 3e combat, in which a first level PC might have 8 hit points and be fighting an enemy who deals 1d8 damage on a hit. Sometimes people confuse this with a "just off the farm" feel. Its not. Its a separate issue.

 

[Rechan]

I am glad that my first level character doesn't have to spend an "adventure" killing rats in a cellar for a few bits before he can accomplish something.

 

[Rechan]

If I were genuinely interested in creating a "just off the farm" feel to a 4e game, I would start the PCs off as a part of a larger organization. Perhaps an army. I would use this to emphasize the PCs comparative weakness relative to the regular soldiers, whom I would stat up at around 4th level. Then the PCs rise from nobody recruits (with potential, see, eg, their power selection) to talented regulars, to elite soldiers, and then beyond (ie, to paragon tier), would be a major theme in my campaign, and a major source of the player's sense of satisfaction and accomplishment.

Another way to tackle the issue is to assail PCs with threats that they do not have a whole lot of countermeasures against.

For instance, Remove Disease is a level 6 ritual. Giant rats, a level 1 monster, can give your PCs filth fever, a level 3 disease. Your PCs, unless they hunt down an NPC with access to Remove Disease, will have to cure Filth Fever the hard way: making endurance checks. Having to hunt down an NPC who can make them stop being sick is certainly a bit humbling.

Another option is a swarm. Odds are you have one PC with area/close effects in the party. If so, then the rest of the PCs are really going to be hurtin', waiting for the controller's turn to come up while this swarm eats their face. Two swarms (or more; beware of the Needlefang, rat swarm is more friendly) should properly get that feel of "We are in over our head", no matter how many powers they have.

Also, attacking them when they're weak. Several battles that have sapped their healing surges, followed by a harsh skill challenge, then ambushing them when they settle in to rest (and then not allowing them their surges during the ambush). Or mix two encounters, so that they are lacking their resources to fight back properly.

 

[themilkman]

I am glad that my first level character doesn't have to spend an "adventure" killing rats in a cellar for a few bits before he can accomplish something.

Value judgments aside, I don't think it would be hard to create a scenario where players start "pre 1st level" and advance up to 1st level after a short adventure. Give them crappy equipment, half their HP, only 1 at-will, and have them fight minions and gimped kobolds for a while. Then they join the army, or the King's elite bodyguard unit, or find a hermit in the mountains, or get struck by Godly essence, and after that they're full 1st levels.

Just be careful that you don't kill them, or that they don't get bored, both of which were supposed to have been taken care of by the 4th edition 1st level characters being a bit more powerful.

 

[Rechan]

Value judgments aside, I don't think it would be hard to create a scenario where players start "pre 1st level" and advance up to 1st level after a short adventure.

I actually have wanted to run a scenario where the players are commoners. A good ol' fashioned "Night of the Living Dead" setup, where the chief goal is not "fight the zombie horde", but "Survive the night". Each time a character dies, they stumble upon another survivor that player gets to play. At the end of the scenario, the characters stumble across some ADVENTURERS, and that's where the next session begins, the 1st level PCs encountering these survivors.

But that's less "Off the farm" and more "A day in the life of a commoner in Resident Evil: Mayberry". Players don't get to start with their PCs at day one, so it defeats this thread's purpose.

For what it's worth, I recall some publishers were talking about 0 level classes. Coulda sworn it was in the Advanced Player's Guide.

 

[brehobit]

Forked from: Telling a story with 4th Edition

I don't think I agree with you, but I'm not sure exactly what the issue is. Can you provide an example or two of what you mean?

Cheers,
Roger

Certainly, though others have already hit on some of the points.

My main game, which I've run off-and-on since 1990 under 2e, 3e, 3.5e, and RuneQuest, has the players start in a small village largely as farmers. Even the casters generally come from the village. The party is sent to find the missing knight who runs the village.

The idea is that they are scrubs. The local guards should be intimidating (I had them as level 2 warriors in 3.x), and even minor encounters are fairly scary.

1st level characters in 4e are somewhere around the power level of a 3rd level character in 3e. That's by design. A 1st level character is _darn_ powerful in 4e and it's hard to feel otherwise.

Value judgments aside, I don't think it would be hard to create a scenario where players start "pre 1st level" and advance up to 1st level after a short adventure.

Yep. I've been working on rules for just that. I personally _like_ running and playing in lower-level games. I also largely like the 4e rules. So, house rule time...

 

[Milambus]

Here is an idea for a pre-heroic character.

Have the player actually create their first level character, then reduce it down to a level 0 (below). As they adventure through the pre-heroic stuff restore abilities as appropriate for the story (They received training, or just figured something out).

Level 0
Remove all powers
Remove all feats
Remove 1 levels worth of HPs
Normal stats
Skills - unsure about these

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

1st level characters in 4e are somewhere around the power level of a 3rd level character in 3e. That's by design. A 1st level character is _darn_ powerful in 4e and it's hard to feel otherwise.

I completely understand where you're coming from and the sort of game you're trying to run - but I have to query this statement.

5 1st level 4e characters are threatened by a small group of kobolds - amongst the least powerful monsters in the MM. They'd be in trouble against only a few skeletons or zombies.

How, then, are they _darn_ powerful? Powerful compared to what?

I ask this in a spirit of clarification, not to be antagonistic.

Thanks!

Tallarn.