Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder: Encounter Design Simplified

[Wulf Ratbane]

Can this be extrapolated to the effects of items and the Big Six items? Reason I ask is for my next game I'm considering giving out a feat per level (as per the BOXM 1 & 2) and using action points (per UA), and I'm wondering if this would allow me to reduce the amount of magic drastically without overly impacting the rest of the system...

I can do it for you very quickly right now. Keep in my this is not deep analysis.

UK allocates 0.2 per level for PC Wealth. Very close to 100% of the PC wealth can be tied up in the allegedly "required for balance" Big Six-- through about 12th level. (After that, they get some breathing room and everyone will be able to keep current on the Big Six, with cash to spare.)

If you gave the PCs a feat per level-- over and above anything granted by their class-- that should be a fair swap for the Wealth. (A feat is also worth 0.2.)

You'd want to be careful, though, since not all feats scale through all tiers of play the same way that items do. Once you've bought Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, and Iron Will, you've got a +2 bonus to all your saves, same as a +2 resistance item-- but where do you go from there? So you might consider extending some of the "flat bonus" feats into higher levels with greater bonuses.

I would still make sure to give them the indicated amount in wealth and consumables shown in the last column of the Treasure Parcel table.

(And Action Points are never a bad idea.)

A better solution for you might be to look at the Treasure Parcels table and, instead of giving out items OR feats, give out the applicable bonuses at the appropriate time.

MAJOR awards
+1 weapon enhancement (+1 to hit and damage)
+1 deflection bonus
+1 natural armor

MINOR awards
+1 resistance
+1 armor or shield
+2 ability booster

Just let the player pick what he wants at each Tier.

 

[Alzrius]

It's worth noting that NPC wealth is 0.125 per level, compared to 0.2 for PC wealth per level. That's relevant if you want to use the excellent advice Wulf gave above to also reduce the amount of magic gear your NPCs are using (since you don't want the PCs to loot slain NPCs for magic items, after you've already given them compensatory bonuses for not having magic items!).

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

It's worth noting that NPC wealth is 0.125 per level, compared to 0.2 for PC wealth per level. That's relevant if you want to use the excellent advice Wulf gave above to also reduce the amount of magic gear your NPCs are using (since you don't want the PCs to loot slain NPCs for magic items, after you've already given them compensatory bonuses for not having magic items!).

Great point! That's definitely on my agenda, too.

My goals are threefold:

-reduce/eliminate NPC magic items.
-eliminate most of the big 6. For some reason I can buy into magic swords and armor, but the stat boosters, natural armor amulets, etc bug me.
-reduce the amount of magic item selling/accounting, especially at higher levels. Reducing NC magic alone will have a big effect on this, as significant time is spent trading up/deciding to sell various big 6 items ("anyone need a Ring of protection +2?" "I do - I'll throw my +1 into the pool." "OK. Anybody need a Ring of Protection +1?") that the NPC's need to "make their numbers."

I'm considering making all magic weapons "levelling" weapons that go up automatically at certain levels (kind of working along Wulf's suggestion of giving the PC's bonuses at certain levels), possibly doing the same thing with armor (or else giving a levelling AC bonus at certain levels, as I can't really grok the idea of armor that improves with your skill as easily as I can grok weapons that improve as you get better with them).

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I'm considering making all magic weapons "levelling" weapons that go up automatically at certain levels.

Cool. I plan to offer this in Trailblazer.

I can't really grok the idea of armor that improves with your skill as easily as I can grok weapons that improve as you get better with them).

Well now that doesn't make any sense. You can't have a legendary shield that the hero grows into, just as easily as a weapon?

That's hardly a stretch for anybody who's obviously already in the D&D headspace. I find your limitations here really remarkable!

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I know, logically its the same thing. I think I can get it with shields better than simple armor - you can become more skilled at using a shield, but armor is just kind of there.

Here's an example of my concept on weapons - to give context, one of my ideas to reduce magic items is a bit of flavor bait-n-switch; +1 and +2 swords get their bonuses from their materials, not from enchantment, and only +3 weapons or above are actually "magic." You might be able to give a non-magical weapon the flaming property via an alchemical process, and a non-magical weapon could be keen due to superior construction. The exact bonuses and when you get them are something I've been adjusting up or down depending on if I think they're too good or not good enough...

Frostbrand
(glows when temperature is under 0 degrees, wearer won't slip on ice, can extinguish non-magic fires in a 10' radius by thrusting sword into them)

Starts as +1 Frost

At 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th and 19th levels, add +1 worth of abilities (sword can be "retrained" at DM's discretion).

+1 Equivalent abilities
+1 to hit/damage
add Icy Burst
Protection from Cold 10
Bane versus fire subtype (+2d6)​

A sword that is "merely" a pure fighting weapon might look like this:

Battle Sword
Starts as +2 (and one of the below +1 equivalent abilties)

At 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th levels, add +1 worth of abilities (sword can be "retrained" at DM's discretion).

+1 Equivalent abilities
+1 to hit/damage (max +5)
Keen
Defending
Eager (MIC)

+2 Equivalent abilities
Disarming (MIC)
Parrying (MIC)

+3 Equivalent abilities
Speed

+5 Equivalent abilities
Vorpal​

 

[Droogie]

Re: 10 min workday and reserve points

Wulf, can you elaborate on the concept of reserve points? I assume you gain a new point every other level and as mini-rewards by the DM. Is there any other way to gain them? Do you recommend a point cap? Should they replenish after 24 hours?

Considering that pathfinder clerics can heal the party easily outside of combat with their channel energy power (an x/day power that now replenishes after 10 minutes of uninterrupted rest), don't you think that a 50% hp return is a bit much?

I am dying to use this system in my game, if only we can tweak out some details.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Wulf, can you elaborate on the concept of reserve points? I assume you gain a new point every other level and as mini-rewards by the DM. Is there any other way to gain them? Do you recommend a point cap? Should they replenish after 24 hours?

Refresh (ie, reset) them every time the PC gains a level.

If for some reason the PC has "banked" more points than his new total would indicate (only possible if you give out bonus points for some reason), then let him keep the bigger amount.

This section admittedly suffers a bit in the preview, being torn away from the rest of Trailblazer, which uses Action Points.

Considering that pathfinder clerics can heal the party easily outside of combat with their channel energy power (an x/day power that now replenishes after 10 minutes of uninterrupted rest), don't you think that a 50% hp return is a bit much?

Nope.

Define too much. Too much with respect to what you're used to, or too much with respect to what actually facilitates better play?

The rest mechanic is a philosophical change much more than it is a mechanics change.

Either you want your PCs to get back into the action, or you don't.

Assuming that you don't want the PCs to rest, how would you prefer to harry them?

Per day?

Or per 10 minutes?

It's really a question of how big a role you want resource management to play in your game, and whether or not your players find that fun or not.

Yes, my players know that they can rest "with relative ease" most of the time. But they really don't know if I am going to pressure them (ie, interrupt their rest) at any given time. And if I do decide to pressure them, I only have to think 10 minutes ahead, not a whole day ahead.

In 10 minutes, a dungeon level can be put on full alert, the BBEGs can cast their "long duration" buffs, and I might move a couple of squads of guards out to look for the intruders-- but other than that my adventure doesn't have to flex very much to accommodate either the players' desire to rest or my desire to harry them.

In 1 day, a lot can change. It's a lot harder for me to keep my adventure "on the rails" if I have to keep accounting for the passage of days at a time.

Heck, in the past, as a DM, I've had an entire tribe of humanoids pack up and move overnight rather than wait around for the PCs to return the next day. That wasn't at all what I had planned, but it was realistically the only intelligent response.

I am dying to use this system in my game, if only we can tweak out some details.

I will leave you with this quote, from one of the players in my game who was also skeptical at first:

"Having played with the new Rest mechanic for months now, there is no way you could ever convince me to go back."

 

[Alzrius]

A bit of thread necromancy here; I wanted to go over the differences between Craig Cochrane's CR system versus what's in Trailblazer.

They are an extension-- it's not fair to compare them to either v5 or v6.

Call it the TLAR method.

I don't believe CR is nearly as precise as Craig does, nor does it need to be. Craig's method is a bit like designing a targeting system that can aim a bomb to the nearest inch.

Comparing Trailblazer to Craig's CR list (v.6), I'm trying to get a sense of how the base assumptions vary; in this case, it seems to come down to the numerical value of a feat.

Trailblazer says the following in this regard:

The class features column is a rough estimate of all class abilities, based on the assumed value of 1 Feat. Not all feats are created equal; certainly neither are all class features. However, we use a rough estimate of .01 per feat-equivalent class feature.

So one feat is worth .01 CR. For monsters (rather than PC's), this is then multiplied by 0.67, for a total value of .0067 when applied to a monster's CR.

However, Craig's system pegs a feat as being worth .2 CR. Now, admittedly, this needs to be then plugged into the Silver Rule (0.83 multiplier) and then apply the 0.67 multiplier for monsters. So, .2 x .83 x .67 = 0.11122.

This seems to be a rather stark difference between the two.

So then, if I wanted to add ten additional feats to a pit fiend, would that increase his CR by +0.067 (Trailblazer method) or +1.1122 (Craig's method)?

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

A bit of thread necromancy here; I wanted to go over the differences between Craig Cochrane's CR system versus what's in Trailblazer.

<snip>

Easy answer.

The value of a feat is the same in both systems: +0.2 CR.

Because he wants to approximate the value of each class level, Craig averages the value of that feat across 20 levels-- ergo, +0.01.

I follow his lead here exactly.

So:

If you want to add 10 feats to a pit fiend, straight up, sure: you could just add +2.0 CR.

Using the Trailblazer method, if you added twenty class levels of fighter to a pit fiend, which includes 11 feats as class features, you'd add (20)*(.11) = +2.2 CR.

You can see from this that if you add an odd number of fighter class levels to a creature, using the 0.01 value that is averaged across 20 levels, you'll shortchange your monster a little bit.

Craig's method provides you with a bit of short-hand by averaging the value of every class feature into 1 HD, but if you are more comfortable adding up the discreet CR value of every single ability you add, brute force, you can do that.

That is far too noodley for most GMs to deal with however, with greatly diminishing returns in terms of "accuracy."

Trailblazer prioritizes speed in prep-time and a "close enough" philosophy.




EDIT: To answer your larger question, the primary deviations between my numbers and Craig's are as follows:

1) Remove the value of skill points in monster HD. (Monsters shouldn't pay CR for something that has no combat value.)

2) Remove the value of class vs. cross-class skills entirely.

3) Remove the value of weapon and armor proficiencies entirely.

4) Complete revaluation of spellcasting ability. Craig's version included the number of spells on each class spell list in the CR value-- which is patently silly, since everytime a new sourcebook of spells was released, it would require you to revalue the cleric, druid, wizard, and any other class that has easy access to "all spells."

Couple 2, 3, and 4 together and you can somewhat summarize my changes as, "Diversity of combat options does not equal greater CR."

I assume "best case" for both PCs and monsters-- they'll use the best of whatever is available.

 

[Alzrius]

Ah, it all becomes clear now. I hadn't realized that the major difference was that Craig's version took the full value of a feat over a 20-level spread, whereas yours was listing the base value of the feat regarding a single level. That makes things much clearer, thanks!

That leads me to another question though; how much do these values change when class levels hit epic levels? I know that natural Hit Dice aren't subject to any kind of level caps, but class progressions for BAB and saves alter past 20th level, and class features and bonus feats for each class change quite a bit. Will Trailblazer cover that also?