WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

Dannager

First Post
I don't think this move is actually going to drive many customers away. There might be a handful of people who were completely dependent upon PDFs to the exclusion of physical books completely, and those people will find themselves unable to play. There might be a handful of people who get furiously upset at not being able to re-download something they wanted to re-download. And there might be a handful of people who enjoy being filled with righteous indignation over something that doesn't affect them in any way.

But for the vast majority of gamers, this decision has absolutely no effect on them. Yeah, it's a botched PR job. But the magnitude of the issue is pretty small.
 

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Voadam

Legend
Maybe they have another method for digital distribution of their products that they'll unveil in the future; I don't think that matters.

I think it does matter. If they never make these available again that would be worse than them selling them themselves or redistributing them through OBS/Paizo.

I don't think they have anything in place however and selling them themselves runs into the exact same conceptual piracy possibility problems as selling them through OBS/Paizo.

Policies can change and they have sold pdfs before, so there is the possibility that these will come around again. Which would be better than the current nothing they offer on this front.
 



A) You cannot stop digital piracy, piracy cannot be stopped short of draconian evil.
Digital piracy is not theft, it can't be theft, no one is breaking into your home and robbing you or worse.
It's UNAUTHORIZED COPYING, completely different, and should be seen as such.

Digital items cannot be stolen, only copied, real items have ot have prices based off rare materials etc used to make them, they are "limited" material items and are *real*: you cannot copy them onto a CD or the Net, but digital copies can be almost unlimited, distributed to everyone on Earth in seconds if they have a net connection, and cannot be worn out!! They should thus be dirt cheap.

yes it can hurt folk, mostly if some git claims they made an item someone else worked hard on, but financially, it's not as simple as companies want you to think.
Why?

because if the product had been sold, at a price the user likes, with all the things the user likes, they'd have bought it!
Piracy is the competition and thus it's good for the industry, because industries always try to form monoploies and price fix things. Ironic but true.
Governments are useless at stopping price fixing and monopolies in the digital era.

Someone with an unauthorized copy is not a thief, they are a potential buyer who has not been enticed to buy...think about it a minute.

Do you want to get them to buy, or, your "pound of flesh" and alienate more folk?
better lots of sales cheap, and a massive happy user base, than being a moron who cuts away his own foundations.

While folk like things for free, most *real users*, as opposed to "magpies", preffer real items and pay for them, to support creators, to get new updates and content etc.

Seen this stuff a lot in digital art, and piracy forced the greedy monopolies ot change a fair bit (still not enough though IMHO).
Doesn't mean I like artists losing money, just that it's not as simple as the RIAA etc want you to believe (IMHO, they are much worse criminals than the P2P folk, see the way recordign artists were paid/treated versus profit made from them)
if WOTC is going down that road, like TSR they will die out as they've lost the plot.

This is no longer the 19th century. totally new ways of looking at things are needed, includign companies NOT being run as the personal fiefdom of folk who don't understand how things really work.


b) Corporations are immortal, non-real entities with almost no responsibilities or limitations and enough power to bend the law/makers.
Few folk appreicate how damn dangerous that makes them..some are gettign the point now though (see RIAA and other companies grotesquely immoral law suits and recent mayhem in business).

c) D&D thrives on user loyalty...but this on top of other decisions is way too much even for me,
WOTC management needs excoriated. there needs ot be heads on the block of their maganement to appease the fans, but not Scott or the designers, this is due to bad higher management, of not running things smoothly between the company's various parts, and critically, it's users.

When many very bad decisions have occured to offend folk, you find who was responsible and didn't stop it, and fire their butts in a very public way with a very public apology.
People are utterly fed up with being treated like victims by big business, we demand respect.
That's not vitriol, it's common sense.

Or better yet, get WOTC/D&D out of Hasborg, and into the hands of folk who care for it, again.
I love D&D, I do not love WOTC.
I love 4th ed and think the DDi stuff is good, others disagree.
But there's no excuse for WOTC to be so grossly out of step with it's user base, who keep them in employment!
 
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Mallus

Legend
Some thoughts...

... the anti-piracy statements were dumb. The way to fight piracy is through competitive pricing and convenient downloading, cf iTunes.

... WotC will probably (eventually) make these materials available through other channels, either their own online store or some kind of "legacy" Compendium --why sell people information when you can rent it to them?.

... aside from some distaste over WotC making a dumb --and badly rolled-out-- move, I really couldn't care less.

... I like their new product, and will continue buying it, up until the point I no longer like it.

... I liked their older products too, and fortunately, I still have them.

... if I want more of them, there are always used book stores, and their modern-day replacements, eBay and Amazon Marketplace.

That about wraps up my feeling on the matter. Stupid move on WotC's part, but barely an inconvenience for me in practical terms.
 

Wicht

Hero
Now that we are allowed to talk about this again...

Paizo made it clear not all that long ago that they would continue to allow people to download PDFs they had bought up until the publishers told them to pull the download. That let me know that publishers can tell distributors to no longer allow any downloads of their products. Which means that WotC was within their rights to do what they did. It doesn't make the act any less worse however

Buying a PDF is a matter of trust. Trust in both the publisher and the distributor. We trust the distributor to be able to provide us downloads of what we bought and we trust the publisher to continue to allow us access to what we paid for. Its a bit of a gentleman's agreement. WotC showed that they can't be trusted not to pull the rug any time they feel like it.

I want to know if this makes those publishers who are trusting WotC not to change or yank the GSL without warning rethink their position as partners in that license.
 

Xyxox

Hero
Well, I like to look on the bright side of things.

My collection of D&D material that goes all the way back to the white boxed set has certainly increased in value.

:D
 
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Roman

First Post
As a PDF user myself (PDF + iPhone = always having D&D with me!), I'm surprised and saddened by this news. But what's really floored me is all the melodrama on this thread.

Charles, nice to see you here! That said, I think the anger here is based on the fact that for many people this is the last straw in a string of decisions by WotC over the past several years that are perceived to be hostile to the RPG community at large, ranging from the cancellation of the magazines, through the GSL fiasco to the current PDF fiasco.

In early 2000s, WotC was my favorite company (kudos to you for being there at the time - it shows that profitable corporate decisions don't have to alienate customers), but in the past few years they have done their utmost to squander the goodwill build up over this period. I think this final episode is just the spark that set people off - but the fuel for the fire has been building for a while now.

Besides, it doesn't matter if it is a company's legal right to do something - it is our legal right to complain about it too and be displeased. After all, just because I can come up to somebody on the street and swear at them for no reason, doesn't mean I should do that or that others will look kindly upon me if I do.

But 4E Has Already Been Pirated!

Yeah, it's too late for the PHB, MM, DMG, and PHB2. But it's not too late for the MM2, the PHB3, or any number of other strong titles. It's still early in the 4E life cycle.

Right, so what sense does it make to pull 2E PDF products, 3E PDF products and already existing 4E PDF products from the market? If prevention of future piracy were at stake, WotC could have decided to not include these future products as PDFs - it certainly is not helping to fight piracy of future products by pulling already existing ones off the market.

I am more and more inclined to suspect duplicity - after the ongoing fiascos I have now moved past giving WotC the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps WotC may have decided that it wants to sell PDFs exclusively on its own and thought providing piracy as an excuse to pull them from existing publishers would defuse any customer complaints about this - after all, nobody would want to defend piracy...

I'm not a legal expert, and I have no special info on this issue, but I bet it's no coincidence that this happened within hours of the lawsuits being filed. I bet WotC needed to get all their ducks in a row--and all their court summons served--before tipping their hand to organized pirates. The lack of warning was probably a specific tactical move--not a PR fumble.

Well, their tactical move has strategic implications for the market. They have deliberately decided to hurt a section of their customer base that is now understandably angry at them. Even if this was done to go after the pirates, which I am sceptical about, it is like 'collateral damge' in a war - if you decide to hurt many innocents in a war to get at a couple of bad guys, you may find that many of those affected innocents turn against you.
 

SabreCat

First Post
But for the vast majority of gamers, this decision has absolutely no effect on them. Yeah, it's a botched PR job. But the magnitude of the issue is pretty small.
Sad but true. Internet forums like ENWorld tend to amplify the vocal minority. In turn, Hasbro/WotC are unlikely to feel much of an effect in profits or goodwill.

And there might be a handful of people who enjoy being filled with righteous indignation over something that doesn't affect them in any way.
This, however, is an unnecessarily belittling characterization of, e.g. people who would undertake a boycott on principle. Someone might yank their Insider subscription or cease purchasing D&D4 products, and make their voice heard by what channels they can, without its being a mere case of getting off on anger.
 

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