WotC puts a stop to online sales of PDFs

[Scribble]

There might be other reasons as to why WotC did what it did, but 'fighting piracy' does not even figure on my list of possibilities, because that would be so mind-bogglingly stupid and ineffectual (and actually likely to increase piracy) that it just cannot be.

Roman- What I see is not so much "fight" piracy, as figure out a way that they can sell digital product without basically handing that product to the pirates.

I mean while I liked being able to get the D&D pdfs in the same form I get all the other gaming PDFs I can see how vulnerable those things are.

Not only like all digital products can they be pirated, but it's laughably easy to do so. It's a fine method for the smaller companies whos product is mainly consumed by people more "involved" in the game community... But once you start getting into the size D&D is, and start selling outside of that "community" to people who don't know or care about it? That method is pratically useless.

 

[Scribble]

When a company completely abandons a market and all associated revenue streams, they aren't generally looking to "fix" problems in that market, rather they usually have identified that market , service or product as being outside their core competencies, and are removing themselves completely, in the interest of streamlining their business.

That might very well be the case, but:

They've removed themselves from the market entirely, not just the OOP stuff, and we've been told they're looking at other avenues to return to the digital market.

That's the main reason at this point I see it as that they really are attempting a fix. They shut the whole shebang down, not just parts they didn't feel helped them.

Shutting down the whole thing is a HUGE move, one that (quite obviously) is having huge consequences. You REALLY think they wouldn't have seen that coming?

Wouldn't it be easier to just shut off the old product? A large portion of the fanbase buying that product have already written off the new product to begin with. Why risk ill will with your current product fans?

It just seems way to crazy an idea to me to picture this as some sort of underhanded scheme to get rid of the old product and cause people to suddenly want to buy the new.

(Especialy when there is history of the company/ product routinely cutting off the old market in favor of the new. It just seems simpilar just to say we're no longer supporting the old product, and be done with it rather then an elaborate rouse involving a court battle and loss of sales of their main product.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(look of despair)

I'm not a corporate person, or a lawyer, or a professional, or even a gaming professional.
Just a Nobody. (A Nowhere Man, as the Beatles might have put it.)

But I remember some things.

-

Remember dice?
Remember how popular dice were, when we were kids playing?

- Now, we could have economized and shared one set of polyhedron dice between us, between the whole group (maybe a second set, for the DM) but that is not what happened. We did not economize in that way.
- We could have economized and had one set of dice (1d20, 1d12, 1d10, 1d8, 1d6, and 1d4) per player. Reasonable, no? Everyone would have had enough dice. Is that how it was? Sometimes ... but in my experience, it was rare.

Did players come to the table, and unload dice bags, and dozens, or - literally - hundreds, of dice come rolling all over the table (and floor) ?
Sometimes that happened, yes.

Did *several* players come to the table, and unload dice bags with dozens, or even hundreds of dice (almost a Dice Arms Race, as it were) ?
Yes. It happened.
I saw it happen, over and over.

What drove such extravagance? What drove such flagrant spending of money?
It was a side effect of their love for the game.

-

Books ...

We could have bought one 1E player's handbook, one 1E dungeon master's guide (for the DM *ONLY* like it *itself* specified), and one 1E monster manual (also, generally, for the DM *only* as it itself implied should be done.)
Thus, one DMG, one MM, and one (or maybe two) PHs, for the whole group.
Definitely, an Economy Group, that would have been.

Of course, it did not work out that way.
EVERY player *HAD* to have the PH. *And* the MM. *And* the DMG (which they, of course, perused from end to end, memorizing the DM Only Rules down to the last word on the last obscure page.) *And* the Unearthed Arcana supplement. And for many, Oriental Adventures, the Manual of the Planes, the Wilderness Survival Guide, and the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.

On to 2E. Isn't what happened there pretty infamous?
Haven't we, over the decades, been hit with repeated and endless complaints about how Player A bought obscure Book Z from (somewhere, preferably somewhere the DM wasn't familiar with), and unleashed a whole bunch of X-Rules on the poor DM?
And this went further and further. Books ZA. Books ZB. Books ZZ. Books ZZA. Books ZZZ. Books ZZZZ. Books ZZZZZZZ. Rules from Beyond the Realm of Cthulu, brought into the light of day. Rules Mankind Was Not Meant To Know (much less the DM, nuked, irradiated, slimed, ghost touched, and plane shifted into the Deep Beyond, before he ever had a chance to get out a d20 ...) were brought into the light of day ... well, into the game.

What prompted all this book buying?
Was it economical? Was it money smart? Couldn't the players have shared notes? Couldn't the players have explained the rules to each other?
Couldn't the players have restrained themselves from spending hundreds, or thousands, of dollars on books and supplements that might or might not ever have been used?
Think of the Complete Book of Elves, 2E. But has anyone ever used Elven Plate? (why anyone would want to, is beyond me. It *still* didn't allow for spellcasting.)

What prompted all this extravagant, flagrant (and oftentimes futile, since the DM never allowed their use) book buying?
Love of the game, of course.

-

How about 3E? How about the explosion of products under the OGL? How about those thousands of feats that got written up and put in supplements (which were never used for the good reason that too few feats are allowed for characters for them to have the luxury of taking 10 Social Feats?)
Yet the products were sold, and players bought them. (They regretted it, when the product was low quality, obviously, but that didn't stop them from going out and buying more products, hopefully of better quality.)

What caused all this?
Love of the game.

-

We still love the game, us Old Timers.
We may fight and bicker, warmonger and flame, but we love the game.

Hopefully, others could come to love the game like we have loved it.

But ...

If you shut the game away, so that the Young cannot access it, except on the most stringent and limited basis, will they bite? Will they flock to our Hobby?
Or will they go for World of Warcraft, that titanic game up there on a marquee (theater-like) across the street, with it's high visibility and it's aggressive marketing? Or to other games?

For us, the Old Timers ... did someone say that we were discarded, and this was a good decision? (I thought I read someone saying that ...)
I *do not know* if such a decision was made, but *if it was* made, then I would question how reasonable that decision is.
We Old Timers are a faulty bunch, yes, but are we worthy of discard? I do not believe so. I am guessing most others here at ENWorld would agree that we are not discards.

-

(sad, frustrated, bewildered)

What is this?
The game of D&D is about fun.
Having war after war, people arguing, people frustrated, people angry, a perpetual angry mood, a mood of despair and anger, resignation?

How did it come to this? This is not fun.

The game is about fun. Take away the fun, and nobody buys dice, or books. Nobody wins, nobody makes money, nobody has a good time.

Keep the fun. Without the fun, what's the point? There is no point.

I am no corporate CEO, not working in a corporation, not anyone of any importance, not anyone of any significance at all. I do not even know how to play D&D very well, I never did. I was always lousy at it.
But even I can see that without fun, who will play? Why will they play if it is not fun? Why not do something else that *is* fun, instead? (and rivals on all sides are very busy making alternatives available.)

Why not ... just ... keep the fun?

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(really, really, really frustrated)

Just keep ... the ... fun.

That's the true Bottom Line. Corporate Bottom Line. Game Bottom Line. DM and Player Bottom Line. Everyone's Bottom Line.

*** Fun, the Bottom Line. ***

You can take that Bottom Line to any bank, real or metaphorical.

Yours Extremely Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Primal]

That's what was indicated by a company spokes person. I have no reason to call that man a liar, so that's the information I have to go on. If you don't want to discuss it because I disagree with you? Well hey whatever floats your boat man!

I don't think anyone actually thinks Wotc_Trevor is a liar. I get the feeling that he was simply told what to say, and may very well not even know the real reasons. Reading between the lines (based on his comments about forwarding all feedback to the "brass"), I think he actually understands the backlash and symphatizes with the fans.

 

[Mephistopheles]

That's the main reason at this point I see it as that they really are attempting a fix. They shut the whole shebang down, not just parts they didn't feel helped them.

Shutting down the whole thing is a HUGE move, one that (quite obviously) is having huge consequences. You REALLY think they wouldn't have seen that coming?

If they did see it coming then I'm finding it hard to come up with reasons why they would have gone ahead with it.

Piracy happens. I think it's something we just have to accept. The problem I have with this action is that they're letting the pirates call the shots. WotC have customers out there waiting to give them money for this product, yet they've removed the product from the market because there are people out there who aren't willing to give them money for the product. Rather than giving their customer base what they want they're focusing on not giving pirates what they want.

Further, I think it's fair to say that not all pirates are potential customers. Why spend money on trying to prevent them from accessing the product for free? Presumably it is so that they will instead spend money on the product when they can't easily get it for free. Whether that represents a wise investment depends entirely on the percentage of pirated copies that represent actual lost sales, something that would seem to be very difficult to determine with any certainty.

Even if you can determine it with certainty it does beg the question of why would you opt to harm relations with your known customer base - the people who are keeping you in business - to try to win over people who not only are not your customers but are stealing your product? Why not focus on providing the best customer experience possible for your customers rather than trying to reform thieves into customers at the expense of your customers? It all seems very counterproductive to me.

 

[xechnao]

That might very well be the case, but:

They've removed themselves from the market entirely, not just the OOP stuff, and we've been told they're looking at other avenues to return to the digital market.

That's the main reason at this point I see it as that they really are attempting a fix. They shut the whole shebang down, not just parts they didn't feel helped them.

Shutting down the whole thing is a HUGE move, one that (quite obviously) is having huge consequences. You REALLY think they wouldn't have seen that coming?

Wouldn't it be easier to just shut off the old product? A large portion of the fanbase buying that product have already written off the new product to begin with. Why risk ill will with your current product fans?

It just seems way to crazy an idea to me to picture this as some sort of underhanded scheme to get rid of the old product and cause people to suddenly want to buy the new.

(Especialy when there is history of the company/ product routinely cutting off the old market in favor of the new. It just seems simpilar just to say we're no longer supporting the old product, and be done with it rather then an elaborate rouse involving a court battle and loss of sales of their main product.)

That would create so much paranoia and nerd rage...you couldn't imagine...

You either pull off all of your pdf catalogue or none of it. It would also be stupid to blame piracy and leave some of the catalogue behind: it would be as saying we do not mind about these remaining catalogue files being pirated. What they could have done is stop adding the new releases. But they did not. This could be because of future store front image reasons.

I also believe that there is a very strong possibility they will bring pdf sales in house. I am not sure but I think it is a strong possibility.

 

[Scribble]

I don't think anyone actually thinks Wotc_Trevor is a liar. I get the feeling that he was simply told what to say, and may very well not even know the real reasons. Reading between the lines (based on his comments about forwarding all feedback to the "brass"), I think he actually understands the backlash and symphatizes with the fans.

Oh I think he sympathizes with the fans as well. I just don't feel his statement is an outright lie. (Whether he was told to say it or not.)

I think Wizards sympathizes with the fans to. They want our money, so they have to to a degree. But some backlash is inevitable, and sometimes you have to make hard calls to fix a problem.

Even if you can determine it with certainty it does beg the question of why would you opt to harm relations with your known customer base - the people who are keeping you in business - to try to win over people who not only are not your customers but are stealing your product? Why not focus on providing the best customer experience possible for your customers rather than trying to reform thieves into customers at the expense of your customers? It all seems very counterproductive to me.

Because again I don't thibnk it's about stopping piracy altogether. As you said, it happens. But I think WoTC realized that how they WERE attempting to mitigate the problem didn't work at all. And since they were making the pdfs available day one, it probably actually helepd the pirates. (Now people who might otherwise have gone out and bought the book because they couldn't find a good pirate copy quick enough were finding them on day one, or at most day two. It's not about the hardcore pirates. It's about the people who are generally willing to buy stuff they want unless presented with an increadibly easy alternative.)

That would create so much paranoia and nerd rage...you couldn't imagine...

They already created paranoia and nerdrage. If they were actually trying to just kill off old edition sales, based on how they've handled it with other products, in my opinion they would have just done so, and not created an elaborate rouse that costs more in the end.

 

[seankreynolds]

I don't think anyone actually thinks Wotc_Trevor is a liar. I get the feeling that he was simply told what to say, and may very well not even know the real reasons. Reading between the lines (based on his comments about forwarding all feedback to the "brass"), I think he actually understands the backlash and symphatizes with the fans.

I hear that.

"Problems with the printers" may be familiar to some people online circa January 1997....

 

[Miyaa]

Just curious, did Wizards of the Coast take over the copyright from TSR for their 1st and 2nd editions? If I recall correctly, copyrights have a shelf-life of about fifty years, meaning something published originally in the 1970's have until 2020 before their copyright date expire.

I will agree that piracy is a big deal strictly on the issue of copyrighting infringement alone. And while what the RIAA attempted to do became essentially a Sisyphus task, they did what they had to do. The internet has turned out to be really hard to make a profit except for a very select band of companies (Apple, Google, maybe Amazon, the MMORPG group).

One minor thing I have heard is that the piracy allows access to materials that you might not be able to get to from paid sources. I heard someone complain that is the problem with Napster. You don't have that problem with Apple's iTunes, where anything can be found at inexpensive prices that makes it more likely to be swayed from the sirens of the pirates.

Piracy is a lot like getting repair parts for your car from the junkyard. It's used, maybe not as high quality as you might get from your quality (insert car brand here) dealership, but you might get the selection that maybe more suitable to your problem. And it's much cheaper than having to deal with your dealership. But you could also be getting a piece that was just as defective, if not more so than the problem piece you have in the car already.

And here lies the problem with Wizard's and the pdfs. If they didn't charge full price for a pdf as they did for the book, they might have had more buyers of the pdf, and less of a piracy threat. But, because they didn't want to diminish the physical book market (i.e. Amazon, the local gaming store, etc.), they kept the rates the same, which they didn't need to since the RPG gaming market is such a niche market made up of a majority of fanatics who will buy the book and buy the pdf.

I think Ryan Delancy was right about Wizards as a business being in a death spiral. The only difference between it and TSR is that it has an even bigger entity in Hasbro with them, and it is a matter of time where either Wizards becomes either an appendix and thus completely useless, or is spun off before hand by Hasbro. Either way this is finalized before it minimizes the profits that Hasbro could potentially receive if it weren't in their umbrella of brands.