[proposal] Genasi Feat: Mindful Manifestor

[Don Incognito]

The physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) don't have many skills associated with them. The mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) have more useful (as well as just plain MORE) skills. As focused as 4e is on combat, there are times when you want non-combat skills. The mental stats provide them, whole the physical stats have skills more linked with providing advantages in combat (this is why Intelligence doesn't provide a bonus to initiative).

This is a step towards homogenization, and I don't like it. Spending a feat to customize the stat used for encounter attack powers is not a path I would like us to go down.

 

[elecgraystone]

The physical stats (Str, Dex, Con) don't have many skills associated with them. The mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) have more useful (as well as just plain MORE) skills. As focused as 4e is on combat, there are times when you want non-combat skills. The mental stats provide them, whole the physical stats have skills more linked with providing advantages in combat (this is why Intelligence doesn't provide a bonus to initiative).

I'll have to disagree with you on mental having more useful skills. I find swimming, climbing, opening locks and jumping VERY useful. If you are in a traditional dungeon you'll find THOSE kind of skills far more useful than most of the mental ones. I have. The total numbers may be larger for mental skills but I've found that physical skills get used as often if not more even those there are less of them.

As far as 'physical stats have skills more linked with providing advantages in combat', again I have to disagree. Paladins seem to do just fine with CHA in combat, swordmages with INT and druids with WIS. Drow's have no problem using CHA and WIS in their racials. And in case you forgot INT can be used for your AC and ref. Mental doesn't equal non-combat and physical doesn't equal combat. They aren't exclusive, not even close.

This is a step towards homogenization, and I don't like it. Spending a feat to customize the stat used for encounter attack powers is not a path I would like us to go down.

But it's just fine for an at-will power that you can do EVERY round, and sometimes more that that. Why is it fine for basic attacks but not encounter? Seems like a double standard. And before you say it's JUST one at will, look at how often you can use it. Normal attack, charges, oppertunity attacks and free attacks from other characters like warlords. An encounter piower may be more powerful, but the at will has MUCH more impact on the character.

SO please tell me why melee training/intellegent blademaster is OK but this feat is bad? Why is changing something that you can use once per encounter too much when an official feat already accepted here lets you do it for an at will? It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Don Incognito]

Because as often as you use them, basic attacks will (most likely) NOT dramatically change the impact of a battle, whereas an encounter power will.

Basically, the feat is attempting to create synergy between two classes where none exists. Sure, it's fun to imagine "what would happen if" scenarios, but I don't think it's healthy for the game, balance-wise and flavor-wise. I think that there was a good deal of thought put into the classes; strength attacks FEEL like strength attacks, intelligence attacks should FEEL like intelligence attacks, etc. Sure, Intelligent Blademaster blurs this line, but I don't think we should blur it any further.

 

[JoeNotCharles]

SO please tell me why melee training/intellegent blademaster is OK but this feat is bad? Why is changing something that you can use once per encounter too much when an official feat already accepted here lets you do it for an at will? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Because basic attacks are the weakest form of attack. That's WHY you can use them so often - the tradeoff for all these situations like charges and OA's is that, sure you can make an attack, but it's just a crappy basic. Swordmages are defenders so they're supposed to be making lots of OA's, but their OA is even crappier than average. Hence, Intelligent Blademaster. It's fixing an interaction between swordmage and one of the fundamental defender abilities, not just for a specific race-class combo.

If there was a for which Genasi Elemental Manifestations were fundamental, then I'd be ok with a feat that let them use that class's primary stat with them. But obviously there's not, because then it would be a Genasi-only class.

 

[elecgraystone]

Because as often as you use them, basic attacks will (most likely) NOT dramatically change the impact of a battle, whereas an encounter power will.

Those poor warlords that that give out those crappy attacks. Wonder why they give them out when they are so useless...

I think that there was a good deal of thought put into the classes; strength attacks FEEL like strength attacks, intelligence attacks should FEEL like intelligence attacks, etc.

Please tell me how Darkfire and cloud of darkenss FEELS like DEX. Tell me how dragon breath FEELS like DEX. See, I'm not FEELING it.

Hence, Intelligent Blademaster. It's fixing an interaction between swordmage and one of the fundamental defender abilities, not just for a specific race-class combo.

So how do you explain Melee Training? If OA are crappy, then why this feat? Also this gives people without weapon powers a melee attack that can expected to hit. A Eladrin wizard with an 18 INT with melee training has a melee at will attack of 1d8+4 with a +7 to hit. That doesn't seem like an inferior or weak attack. Use the Eladrin soldier feat next and pick up a great spear and your wizard has a base +7 to hit, 1d10+6 reach melee attack. That's weak? And to Don Incognito, does this wizard's melee attack FEEL like INT ones?

 

[Don Incognito]

I didn't say they were useless. I said they were less important than encounter attack powers.

Oh, and darkfire uses either Int, Wis, or Cha, not Dex.

 

[fireinthedust]

I don't know that the encounter powers of Genasi Manifestations are so important to a non-melee build that mental powers can't be used.

Firepulse: someone has to hit me in melee

Earthshock: Close Burst 1, enemies around (ie: adjacent to and within hitting distance of the wizard with few hp and AC who happens to be) me.

Promise of Storm: no effect by this feat
swiftcurrent: no effect by this feat
wind walker: no effect by this feat

Elemental Tempest powers
Tempest Burst: Close Burst 1, same problem as Earthshock
Absorb Elements: no effect by this feat
Elemental Fury: Daily power, but only one creature within range 20; at 20th level, hardly optimal.

Wildfire Genasi Powers:
Firesoul Combustion: enemies in burst.
Firesoul Conflagration: enemies in burst. they're both not great for mental-based classes, but fantastic for melee classes.
Embers of Life: no effect by this feat

Whirlwind Genasi:
None of these powers affected by this feat, as all are Int-based already.

I don't see this making the character overpowered at all, but rather a sub-optimal choice when based on the feats and abilities out there using elemental manifestations.

Generic: again, I see that the precedence side of the feat is one thing. However, the point of balance is different from the point of generic. 4e is trying to have Balance.

While it could be argued they make great Swordmages (no argument there) everything they've been built racially around means Melee, not ranged. This isn't a game-breaking build or a game-breaking direction. In fact, it's more unusual than generic, and I doubt people other than myself would be interested in a Genasi Wizard Elemental Tempest.

 

[elecgraystone]

First off, you are quite correct. I was thinking it was DEX for some reason.

I'll have to disagree with less important. You have that 1st level Eladrin wizard with melee training and put him with 2 warlords. You now have a wizard that people can make make OA and the warlords can give free attacks to. That attack you count as 'less important' could be used quite a bit in a combat and add up to a vastly larger amount of damage. Those 2 warlords can let that wizard do more damage to a single boss creature than the wizards burning hands can. [2d8+8 vs. 2d6+4]

To put it simply, the martial training feat gives a new at will to a lot of classes that don't have melee powers. It allows them OA, charges and other things that they just could do before. Put a wizard and party in a small room with a creature that has threatening reach. That melee attack is looking pretty good compared to that burning hands.

I'm not seeing changing the stat for racial encounter powers anywhere close to the power of a new at will.

 

[Ozymandias79]

In response to fireinthedust: Except you forgot to mention that the powers from the elemental tempest already have a substantial bonus to hit

Elemental Tempest powers
Tempest Burst: Close Burst 1, +5+str/con/dex
Elemental Fury: Daily power, +6+str/dex/con

 

[elecgraystone]

Yeah, I'm not sure why fireinthedust brought up paragon powers. The feat proposed was one to alter tha stat on racial powers, NOT paragon powers. Changing them I don't agree with. Class, paragon and epic powers have their stats set and I don't see changing them.