How Important is Magic to Dungeons and Dragons? - Third Edition vs Fourth Edition

[Mournblade94]

So "Players have to master the Cascading bonus Accounting to enjoy the game" is the new "THAC0 kept the riff-raff out?" Good to know.

Yes, clearly that is exactly what I implied. I also reduced D&D to nothing but a series of simple second grade addition lessons since I enjoy doing that level of math so much.

 

[fanboy2000]

Why are we arguing over bonuses? In 3.x, I'd happily re-calculate anything that gave my character an advantage. Or an NPC. It'd be nice if I didn't have to, but it'd be nice I didn't have to cook dinner and I just replicated it like on ST:TNG.

What really sucked were ability score penalties. Not only was the character/monster weaker, but I had to do a bunch of math to figure out exactly how! Mind you, I didn't ban Ray of Enfeeblement because of math. Don't tell anybody this, but with that spell, I just reduced the attack bonus and called it a day. When someone casts Ray of Enfeeblement on a monster, it is not surviving long enough to justify re-calculating his skills.

 

[alleynbard]

I originally said they SHOULD be able to do so. I did not say a player that does not enjoy it is not worth their salt.

Fair enough. I get what you are saying, I truly do. But it was irritating enough for us to recalculate everything that we were happy we didn't need to do that as much with 4e. Our games would stop as everyone calculated buffs right before the combat. The math wasn't complicated at all. But, it wasn't fun for us.

I also understand you weren't necessarily trying to be insulting. I appreciate you clarified your point some. My response was snippier than it needed to be. I think I must be having a bad day and not knowing, because everything I say comes out crabby, vague, and confrontational.

I don't see the net loss here. As much as I love 4e (and I do truly enjoy the game) there are some things that were lost in the translation. This just isn't one of those things for me.

I can respect this is something that you enjoyed about the game. Truly I can. It just wasn't for us.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

3.5 wasn't easier then 4e in terms of bonuses!

Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey.

In my opinion, you're wrong.

And you can't take that away from me.

:3c

No seriously I don't understand the sudden influx of people telling me I'm wrong. Uh, no. I'm not wrong. In m opinion, 3.5 was easier then 4e. You cannot prove me wrong. So why are you trying to?

 

[Mournblade94]

Fair enough. I get what you are saying, I truly do. But it was irritating enough for us to recalculate everything that we were happy we didn't need to do that as much with 4e. Our games would stop as everyone calculated buffs right before the combat. The math wasn't complicated at all. But, it wasn't fun for us.

I also understand you weren't necessarily trying to be insulting. I appreciate you clarified your point some. My response was snippier than it needed to be. I think I must be having a bad day and not knowing, because everything I say comes out crabby, vague, and confrontational.

I don't see the net loss here. As much as I love 4e (and I do truly enjoy the game) there are some things that were lost in the translation. This just isn't one of those things for me.

I can respect this is something that you enjoyed about the game. Truly I can. It just wasn't for us.

No worries! No harm done.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

snip .... nothing I actually disagree with.

bert1000 the comments you quoted were made in the context of a reply to a poster, who complained that in his game that ritual were too long and thus were not used. Since I interepted some of the comments made by that poster that class balance and/or skill overshadowing was not a big issue, then I made my reccomendation to drop the casting times.

It would not be a general reccomendation of mine, though I do think that the designers were a little too conservative with casting times

 

[Hereticus]

Rituals are too expensive to cast, and they take way too long to cast. Most of the great utility spells from 3.5E will never be used in a stress situation because of the casting time.

Maybe casters need to think more strategically.

What do you mean by "think more strategically"?

I've never heard that before regarding D&D, but it seems to be a often repeated buzz word for 4.0E.

 

[Hereticus]

Yeah, my issue with rituals is that there are those like Comprehend Languages that are, imo, ridiculous taking 10 minutes to cast.

It lasts for 24 hours. Cast it while the Fighters are carbo-loading their healing surges for the day.

Perhaps healing surges should also take ten minutes, and cost gold to cast.

 

[Hereticus]

Any player worth their salt should be able to account for every effect on their character even at epic levels. it is no worse than performing an office job. Also I submit that figuring out those cascading effects is part of the fun.

You are right about character abilities, that is if the character started at first level and worked its way up.

One test to determine if a character is a never-played invention is if the player has little clue how to use all its abilities.

Some players would rather the game not come to a screeching halt as they perform math that is "no worse than performing an office job." That isn't fun for me, it wasn't fun for my players. When accounting for every effect on your character becomes a chore after about 9th level, the game ceases to be fun for some people.

How does this bring the game to any sort of "screeching halt as they perform math"?

I've played my Eladrin Wizard to 12th level, and even at that level I have a good understanding of every power, feat, skill and item that I wrote on my character sheet. Not just for combat, but for role playing.

There is very little math involved, and it is a lack of understanding of character abilities that slows a game down.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I think alot of these claims of math slowing the game down are quite exaggerated. We are not figuring out integrals, we are doing addition.

Oh yeah, totally. You're not experiencing it, so that means the problem doesn't exist for someone else!