Prisoner not allowed to play D&D

[Voadam]

In addition, despite some pretty good testimony for the prisoner, the Judge had it right when he brought up Meyer v. Branker, 506 F.3d 358, 370 (4th Cir. 2007) (noting that defendant Meyer “was obsessed with Dungeons and Dragons,” and that “this obsession caused ‘[him] to retreat into a fantasy world of Ninja warriors’”) as evidence that the game could cause problems in a prison setting, and that its ban had some merit.

I think that's stretching a bit to conflate the object of an obsession as causing the obsession. Is it rational to ban all Jody Foster movies in a prison because one person elsewhere became obsessed with her and shot President Reagan due to that obsession?

 

[Mournblade94]

Simply put, many of the positions you just espoused have been- if not disproven- then seriously questioned over the many decades that people have been formally researching prison dynamics.

While there is nothing wrong with having prisoners do physical work, the studies show that unless you take efforts to rehabilitate, reform and socialize prisoners who will eventually be released, you only:

1. create an environment in which prisoners become better criminals- Crime College, as some have called it.
2. increase the danger to the prison work staff- guards, medical personnel, etc.- who have to interact with the inmates on a regular basis.
3. foster an environment that encourages abuse of authority.

Our prisons are the most humane on the planet. We could do with tightening the noose a bit. I like what the sheriff in maricopa county Arizona does, :force all the prisoners to wear pink right down to the underwear, and the prison is a tent city. No air conditioning, and limited free time. More of our prisons need to follow that example.

I don't think giving prisoners more recreation, makes them safer. Once a scumbag always a scumbag.

 

[Cadfan]

Our prisons are the most humane on the planet.

Factually speaking, this is not correct.

 

[Starbuck_II]

I think he means on average, if you compare China, etc prisons to America.
So does this ruling set a bad precedent that Prisons can take away your own stuff (since he bought it) without a reasonable reason?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Our prisons are the most humane on the planet. We could do with tightening the noose a bit. I like what the sheriff in maricopa county Arizona does, :force all the prisoners to wear pink right down to the underwear, and the prison is a tent city. No air conditioning, and limited free time. More of our prisons need to follow that example.

I don't think giving prisoners more recreation, makes them safer. Once a scumbag always a scumbag.

I like many of Joe Arpaio's policies myself. Our soldiers abroad often find themselves in similar states, if not worse, so his tent city jails, to me, are inarguably humane enough. (Point of fact, though: His jail isn't a tent city. His jail includes a tent city on its grounds, erected to alleviate overcrowding that would have necessitated the early release of some of the prison populace by law.)

However, giving prisoners more recreation makes it safer for the guards, not the prisoners. By giving them meaningful recreational, social and creative outlets, you take away from the time they have to consider doing things like making cardboard crossbows (yes, they are real, and can deliver a lethal strike), flinging fecal bombs, etc. because they have nothing better to do with their time. The old saying, "Idle hands are the Devil's workshop." was never more true than when dealing with inmates of a penal institution.

And the fact of the matter is, MOST prisoners eventually get out of prison, at least for a short period of time. Even the violent ones. If you don't teach them to be better socialized citizens, if you don't try to give them the skills necessary to cope with living within our society, you're just helping create the revolving doors on the criminal justice system, because without those skills, they'll be unable to conquer the drive to commit further criminal activities.

 

[Umbran]

Ladies and Gents,

Scroll up a few posts. Look at the stuff in orange. Post #87 to be specific.

Get the hint? This is not a forum for the discussion of penal systems. This is a forum about Dungeons and Dragons and RPGs. Stick to the topic, please. Talk about the impact this will have on the game. Talk about some of the details of law, and whether it was interpreted correctly, even. Talk about the possible rehabilitative or negative effects the game might have on an inmate or group. But let's stay away from how prisoners should or should not be treated, beyond what the law already prescribes, okay?

This is the last such warning the thread will receive. Thank you for listening.

 

[Blastin]

Was gonna chip in again, but I believe Umbran is right and this is getting a bit off track. People's opinions on how inmates should/are treated can be a very hot topic.
I'll just add that what Dannyalcatraz said in the above post is right on. I agree with everything he said in those three paragraphs.

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Well I've known a good number of criminals, in relaity they are a broad bunch and you have to realize this, and what simple things liek gaming can do for them.

Broadly speaking, inmates come in 4 varieities at least in the UK (I can't speak for US gangs and similar extremes across the globe):

1) Dumb. Sorry to be blunt but many of them are sub-normal IQs and often have other issues. so teenage hormones, bad upbringing and lack of ability to grasp what outcomes actually MEAN or do to others, ends in them making poor choices indeed.
consider peer pressure, anger etc on your own self at that age, and think aboout it
Thus, a structured system, with fun, a goal they cxn grasp, adding maths and literature helps.
Most have apalling reading, writing and maths skills. If you make them things they want to learn, this is a big help. For some kids, if they try to learn, they are attacked by their peers as that is not "macho" or whatever which helps lead to their criminality.
So, D&D helps.

2) Mentally ill. Alas about 1/3rd of those in UK jails need to be in mental facilities, but idiotic political stuff (which I'll avoid as per mod wish) ends up in them being dumped in jails.
these people are a wide variety. they can be decent, intelligent folk who've had severe issues they cannot help. roleplay, intelligent fun can be good for some of 'em but they are such a wide group there's no easy median, some are just too screwed up.

3) Crimes of passion. Anyone can blow a fuse, a fight over some contention leads to a death instead of sore heads for example.
When these are, as often, unqiue crimes for that person, something out of character, they can be the ones most likely to not re-offend.
D&D is therefor a normal pass time that lets them socially bond and enjoy things.
Now whether folk who advocate brutality to prisoners like it or not, if prisoners are to be released they must become "decent memebers of society again", and social skills, friendship etc that games create is part of that.
Do folk realze that anyone who thinks prison isn't a detterent and thus commits crimes, is an idiot/screwball? doing time is NEVER "easy", jeesh.

4) Evil. Although psychopathy is a mental illness they must be put in this catageory, as they have NO redeeming features at all and actively go out of their way to cause harm.
Sane people who do serious malign things for profit or pleasure are irredeemable (at least by an outside agent, rarely they can change from some event, trauma or realization).
These kind need welded into a cell and banned from all contact with other human beings, forever. They are manipulative and incredibly dangerous. So you should nto let them play games with others.

 

[Cadfan]

I think he means on average, if you compare China, etc prisons to America.
So does this ruling set a bad precedent that Prisons can take away your own stuff (since he bought it) without a reasonable reason?

1. He said "best."
2. No. This case doesn't set a precedent at all. There's already no legal right to be protected from prison wardens making bad decisions. Even if its objectively the case that taking away this guy's D&D stuff was pointless, that it was done based on ridiculous stereotypes and stupid opinions about gaming, and that its overall going to be counterproductive, that doesn't make it illegal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I agree with your assessments, Silverblade. I'd still like to hear from a expert on the pros & cons (no pun intended) of D&D in a prison environment, though.

Not a gamer, but some kind of mental health expert who uses role play as a therapeutic tool. Ideally one who also games.

Because while we in the outside world love our hobby, and have anecdotal evidence about what a good influence the game was for us (in my case, it was one of several factors that consistently drove me to improve my vocabulary) we don't really have any data on what, if any, good it can do in an institution like a prison (or even mental health facility).

And since we probably all know someone who takes the game a little too seriously, I'd like to hear what such a pro has to say about the potential negative problems that may occur.

After all, the Court already had a case in which someone had proven to be a bit imbalanced and had immersed himself in the game to a disruptive level. The concern, of course, is that in a prison, you're generally dealing with those whose thought processes are out of whack with society in general.

So while in society in general, a guy who takes an RPG to the point where he's not accurately distinguishing between reality and fiction is a rarity, in a prison, the odds may be substantially higher, especially when you factor in the likelihood of substance abuse (both past and present), pre-existing mental illness, and the paranoia and other disorders that may arise from being incarcerated in a small space with hundreds of other criminals...

Again, with all of those considerations, I don't have much of a problem with restricting possession of RPG stuff in the guy's cell, but I think its an entirely different matter if the stuff was in a lounge or library. IOW, with controls in place to monitor activity.

But until someone actually tries that angle, we'll never know.

One last point on recreation in prison in general:

I had mentioned that the ones who benefit most from having social outlets for prisoners are the prison guards themselves. If you visit a prison- as I have done several- you'll find that the prisoners who are the most dangerous to prison staff on a daily basis are the ones who are the ones who have lost the most. The guys who are in solitary or in other forms of lockdown where they may be in their cells for up to 23 hours a day are the ones most likely to lash out. Humans are social creatures. The less social interaction we get, the more we regress.