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Is the math off?

Do you think the math is off or is it just fine as it is?

  • Yes, I think the math is off and needs to be fixed!

    Votes: 62 37.6%
  • No, I think the math is just fine as is.

    Votes: 52 31.5%
  • Both sides have equal merit, it just depends on the group.

    Votes: 27 16.4%
  • Lemonmath

    Votes: 24 14.5%

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Must have missed that one.
Any 3[w] power is 6d6 when you use a 2d6 weapon. 6d6 looks impressive in the listing, but it's not that big a deal. Hell, there are some 1st level 3[w] Encounter powers out there.

I out damaged the Ranger the first game, although to be fair, I did roll pretty good, and got a few even numbers on Chaos Bolt.
That's interesting. If you keep "score" of each of your total damage counts across 5-6 sessions, I'd be very interested to see the results.

Thanks, -- N
 

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rjdafoe

Explorer
Any 3[w] power is 6d6 when you use a 2d6 weapon. 6d6 looks impressive in the listing, but it's not that big a deal. Hell, there are some 1st level 3[w] Encounter powers out there.

I guesss that is where my group differ. We tend to NOT take those kind of weapons, for whatever reason.

Also, for a spellcaster in 4E that seems to be good.

That's interesting. If you keep "score" of each of your total damage counts across 5-6 sessions, I'd be very interested to see the results.

Thanks, -- N

I will try and remember that.

It is funny, as I tend to not play overly optimized characters, but the DM (he plays an Archer Ranger in another game) complained jokingly that I was overpowered.

I did not pay much attention to how the Ranger rolled. This was my first time with a Sorcerer and there was alot to keep track of. I will try and compare next time.
 

keterys

First Post
Well, I definitely think that sorcerers are way more fun than rangers... I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least as good or better until 6th or so level. The ranger double dips on damage bonuses (feat, enhancement, item, vulnerable, etc) and it quickly racks up, but at 1st level they might not have any of those bonuses at all.
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
Well, I definitely think that sorcerers are way more fun than rangers... I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least as good or better until 6th or so level. The ranger double dips on damage bonuses (feat, enhancement, item, vulnerable, etc) and it quickly racks up, but at 1st level they might not have any of those bonuses at all.
Oooo! Good point. I had totally forgotten about that.

Thanks, -- N
 

Well, I definitely think that sorcerers are way more fun than rangers... I wouldn't be surprised if it was at least as good or better until 6th or so level. The ranger double dips on damage bonuses (feat, enhancement, item, vulnerable, etc) and it quickly racks up, but at 1st level they might not have any of those bonuses at all.

the funny part is our resadent optimizer gets mad when he runs into resist for that reason...

in one game we ran into a insub monster with resist weapon 10, and a weaken attack... so the ranger hit 3 times for 1/4-10 damage... meaining if he did less then 41 per shot he did none... (just for kicks he did 50+ per hit so it came out to 18 damage)
 


FireLance

Legend
Please explain what this means... ?
"A-Shaped": Classes which have one primary ability score for attack powers, and two or more secondary ability scores for other effects, e.g. Rogue (Dex primary, Str or Cha secondary).

"V-Shaped": Classes which have two primary ability scores for attack powers, and one secondary ability score for other effects, e.g. Paladin (Str or Cha primary, Wis secondary).
 

kalani

First Post
As a game developer myself, I can see the "percieved" mathamatical problem that the CharOp people are talking about.

Is there an inherrent discrepency between PC Attacks/Defenses, and monster Defenses/Attacks.

Yes.

Is this a problem?

No.

Why?

Because of the following reasons.

1) In the Heroic Tier, your characters are the equivalent of raw recruits. Sure, they have a few tricks up their sleeves which have likely made them cocky and over-confident, but they don't have much "real world" combat experience.

As such, a game system which is more forgiving of the "mistakes" that the party is like to make at this level, both as a result of a lack of teamwork synergy, and as a result of player experience.

You must remember, the Heroic tier also represents the Training ground for players themselves... Not only is the heroic tier the place in which 4E Noobs will be learning the rules of the game, and the basics of tactical and strategic thinking.

Furthermore, it is in the Heroic Tier where player's (both new new and experienced players alike) learn to get a feel for their character's strengths, weaknesses, and start to develop a play-style for that character.

It is also at this level, where the player's will start getting a feel for the strengths, weaknesses, and play-style of their fellow characters and (hopefully) start developing complimentary tactics.

At the very least, this tier gives player's an opportunity to figure out the basics of their character's own abilities and at least learn where they are most beneficial on the battle map, given the party's composition and individual play styles.

All of the above factors have little (if nothing) to do with the inherrent "math" of the game!!! - Yet all of them play an important part in how any given encounter will play out.

Is it any surprising then, that given how many uncontrollable variables exist at this level of game play, that the game's inherrent math is more lenient?

For those who like to compare DnD to an MMORP or a video game - the heroic tier is like playing on "easy" or "normal" mode.

By the Paragon Tier the party is much more comfortable with each other, and should be starting to form well established combat routines, both individually and collectively as a whole.

After playing through the heroic tier together, each player should not only understand their character's abilities and role within the party, but should also have developed a good understanding of their fellow player's unique play styles, and how they influence the way in which they play their character(s).

Furthermore, each player should know where their character is best positioned on the battle grid, which of their party members they directly support (or are supported by), and which monsters are their ideal targets (Lurker, Soldier, Leader, Brute, Artillery, etc).

Again, while all of these factors are influenced by the mathematical abilities of any given character, they are far more dependant on other, less transparent factors.

However, given the fact that the player's should now have developed a solid understanding of their teams inherrent strengths, weaknesses, and strategies - the game becomes slightly more challenging, and the "math" skews slightly against the party - forcing them to learn how best to gain (and take advantage) of situational modifiers while still being forgiving of their learning curve.

It is also at this level where DMs will start shaking up encounters, forcing players to adjust their "favorite" strategies to deal with less-than-ideal situations, or against less-than-ideal monster roles.

Going back to the video game analogy, this is like playing Dnd on "hard" mode.

By the Epic Level, the 100+ hours spent together at the game table with the same characters should have forged the party into a Navy Seal unit - with each player at the table having intimate knowledge, not only of their own characters strengths and weaknesses, but of the entire party!

It is at this level when the "kid gloves" come off, and all that experience is put to the test.

Completing our Video Game analogy, this is like playing DnD on "Nightmare" or "Hardcore" mode.

Is it any wonder that the odds are stacked against you?
 


kalani

First Post
Um... No I don't think I've ever posted here (but I do post on other forum sites for a variety of games).

With that being said, I thought I had an account, but when I tried to sign in, none of my account names (I always choose the same 3 or 4 account names for all my forum accounts) worked.
 

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