Artificer Dancing Weapon and Proficiency Bonus?

[chaoslink]

I play an artificer, and the past couple of games I've used the Dancing Weapon daily power. It has the "Weapon" keyword, but doesn't include the proficiency bonus in the attack line (it is just Int vs AC).

My argument is that the summon should be proficient with itself, otherwise the to hit is too low. An analog is the "Obedient Servant" power, which is Int +2 vs AC.

I noticed that the playtest DID have the weapon proficiency in the attack line, which means that it was purposefully removed, but I can't find any discussions about why that would be. It is possible that because it has the weapon keyword, including the proficiency bonus is redundant.

Another take I've heard, is that the proficiency bonus should only apply if it is a weapon the artificer is proficient with. That only makes sense to me if the artificer is manipulating the weapon's movements, rather than just giving it commands.

Anyone have an "official" take on this?

 

[Flipguarder]

I really really doubt you are going to get any more direct official ruling on this then you already have.

 

[chaoslink]

Thanks for the reposne, I guess I should have been more clear on what I was expecting; I just want a more educated interpretation. The folks here seem to have a better feel for the intent behind the written rules.

Is the removal of the proficiency from the playtest to the actual book indicative that the proficiency doesn't apply or is it that any power with the "Weapon" keyword automatically get the proficiency bonus?

Should the weapon require that the artificer be proficient to get the bonus, or is the weapon proficient with itself?

 

[weem]

Flipguarder said...

I really really doubt you are going to get any more direct official ruling on this then you already have.

Someone could have asked a CS at some point though no?

Worst case, how do other people handle this situation?

I'm curious as well, as Chaos and I play together (both as DM's and players).

Welcome to ENW btw Chaos

 

[chaoslink]

Heh, thanks Weem. Long time lurker, first time poster.

 

[fba827]

this is purely my view and by no means anything 'official'
BUT if you look at the weapon and summoning keyword,
If it has the weapon keyword/weapon attack, your proficiency bonus is included (for you).

for the summoning keyword it specifically says that attack rolls use your modifiers not counting any "temporary bonuses or penalties" -- stuff like power bonuses are an easy classification of "temporary" bonus. But I am inclined to say that the proficiency bonus is NOT temporary (i.e. you always have it) therefore it WOULD count for your summons attack modifier.

Anyway, as said, just my take on it.

 

[Flipguarder]

Ok, my educated interpretation.

I would say it does include your proficiency bonus but not include the proficiency bonus if you don't have one.

Nothing indicates that the weapon is proficient with itself, which is usually stated when discussing proficiency bonuses for self directing (or things like the battlefist). However, I would say its a REALLY safe bet that any power with the weapon keyword is expected to involve your proficiency bonus.

Also the fact that the attack targets ac is fairly indicitive. Its not 100% that vs ac attacks include prof. bonus. But it is past 80%.

 

[chaoslink]

Ahh, good takes on this, exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks.

Like Weem asked: has anyone had this come up in their own game? If so, how was it ruled and what was the reason?

 

[Flipguarder]

it came up in a game I DM'd.... sooo... yeah. Guess how it was ruled.

 

[weem]

it came up in a game I DM'd.... sooo... yeah. Guess how it was ruled.

Cool, so essentially you allow the proficiency bonus IF the player has the particular proficiency bonus of THAT weapon being used (if I am understanding correctly).