Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?

Krensky

First Post
In answer to all of these: The class-and-level system. It was set up to encourage archetypes and to enable quick character advancement. It has been such since the beginning, where every class gets better at combat as they get more powerful whether they like it or not.

Honestly, what you're describing is a lot more GURPS or FATE than any edition of D&D. :)

-O

Or my class-level based d20 game of choice, which is part of why it's my game of choice. :)
 
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Obryn

Hero
Given that 4Ed makes an effort to make every stat matter, negative stat mods have meaning and impact, so negative mods as a balancing tool make even MORE sense in 4Ed than in any previous edition of the game.
Ack! No, please!

A stat penalty would only be appropriate for genre- or campaign-specific reasons, and would basically amount to, "Only take this race if your class can use that penalty in a dump stat." If a character wants to play (for example) a Halfling Fighter, a Strength penalty would make it less feasible in 4e than it was even in 3e.

I like to encourage unusual race/class combinations, not discourage them. Players are already heavily predisposed to take a race that matches their class's attributes precisely.

-O
 


Krensky

First Post
What Class-Level system lets you suck at combat?

-O

I never said suck.

In Fantasy Craft Keepers and Courtiers have half level BABs, while most classes have 3/4 level BAB. Coutiers aren't helpless, but without specific consideration in building them (and probably multiclassing into the Gallant expert class) they are not combatants. They kick ass in social situations, and even in combat they can bring those social skills to bear. They don't hold a candle to Soldiers though. Similarly, a Soldier (full BAB) can be built to be decent in social circumstances, but he'll never hold a candle to a Courtier, and will be regularly outshone by a Lancer (also full BAB), Explorer, Assassin, or Priest.
 
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pemerton

Legend
Part of balancing chance factors is having them come up enough to even out, and another part is weighing them against other factors. Options can present different mixes of risk and reward, different strengths and weakness, different courses of development calling for different strategies.

Such a balance of opportunities has as its object facilitating the emergence of inequality in results among players.

That is obviously a radically different game than one in which the object is equality in results among players.

Trying to play Game B with parts designed to produce Game A, or vice-versa, can be very unsatisfying.
Building on this: it seems fairly obvious to me (but maybe I'm misreading the evidence) that part of what causes the "balance" debate is that different people are trying to use the same set of RPG rules to play very different games.

Related to this is a tendency to limit the notion of "RPG rules" to action resolution mechanics, plus those parts of the character creation mechanics that feed into action resolution. But as Ariosto points out, "balance" questions (Game A vs Game B, for example, or "spotlight sharing" vs "all involved all the time") also connect to other rules aspects like encounter and adventure design, rules for distributing narrative authority, and so on.

Balance issues also turn on the aesthetic point of play. For example, is a game in which the character build and action resolution mechanics mean that some mechanically legal PCs are more likely than others to achieve their desires "unbalanced"? It depends, at least in part, on the relationship between a PC's desires and that player's desires. If part of the point of playing, for the player, is to see his/her PC live out a dramatic life, then the player may be satsified by a system of character building and action resolution that make it likely that her PC will die a failure with her desires unfilled, provided that the failure is dramatic. For players interested in that sort of play, one "balancing" feature of the rules might be ensuring that it is easier for a PC to be a dramatic failure than a dramatic success - thereby avoiding sacharine storylines - while also making success possible - thereby avoiding bathos.

But for typical D&D play, such character building and action resolution mechanics would be unbalanced, because typical D&D play doesn't involve such a strong metagame player/PC split. Hence the 4e rules make it very hard to create a tragic failure of a PC, whatever the build (provided the GM follows the guidelines for encounter and adventure design). This also connects to the reward mechanics of XP and treasure, which assume that the players will be trying to have their PCs succeed at their encounters (thereby earning the XP and collecting the loot). Those reward mechanics would be unbalanced in a game meant to support tragic failure, because they would not give resources to the player of the failing PC that would help that player control the development of her PC's (tragic) life.

One interesting feature of the "balance" of 4e is that it does produce encounters where failure for the PCs as a whole looms large in the early part of the encounter, but is then overcome as the conditional resources of the PCs come into play (second wind and other healing, the superior effects of encounter and daily powers, etc). So in 4e, making sure that all PCs are able to participate meaningfully in combat is (in part) about making sure that there is balance across participation in that part of the game where the drama plays out. For players wanting the game to focus on something else - whether drama across some unit of play other than the encounter, or something other than drama - then all 4e's effort dedicated to producing this sort of balance is wasted.

The part of the 4e encounter design and action resolution mechanics which seems to have paid least attention to this sort of dramatic balancing is the skill challenge mechanic. And this seems to be widely regarded by players of the game as one of the aspects of the game most in need of development. But for those who like the sort of play that 4e best supports, developing the skill challenge mechanic would require injecting more of 4e's encounter/drama balance - including full participatio in all encounters by all PCs - not returning to the "spotlight-sharing" balance of other games and editions.
 

Ariosto

First Post
pemerton said:
This also connects to the reward mechanics of XP and treasure, which assume that the players will be trying to have their PCs succeed at their encounters (thereby earning the XP and collecting the loot).
The notion of PCs -- not players -- "earning" XP is fundamentally strange to my eye. I wonder what end the accounting is supposed to serve in 4e, anyhow.

Is the desired "game balance" one that allows Player B to score more points than Player A and thus get a significantly higher-level character? Considering how level bonuses (which now effectively include treasures) work in 4e, and how many resources get refreshed between encounters -- and the designers' own words in the DMG! -- I do not think so.

In RPGA, a longtime player might have high-level characters, but they are not permitted in the same scenario with characters too much lower in level -- and it's the scenario's level that determines what's appropriate. So, the player either keeps low-level PCs in his or her "bullpen" or creates new first-level ones at need.
 

caelum

First Post
I don't think it is a "bias" so much as a different choice about the best priorites for a system. For me, this review (of 4e) articulates the tradeoff between balance and homogeneity that 4e makes.
 

Whisper72

Explorer
The biggest issue I have with 'game balance' is that in my opinion, trying to achieve game balance through all manner of mechanical / mathematical means is a theoretical issue that bears little impact in real gameplay.

In the end, the balance is decided upon by the DM. No matter how I try to 'balance' the PC's through the rules, if the encounters are all in favour of one type of character, the others sit there being spectators. Therefore, in my opinion, it falls on the shoulders of the DM to make sure the game is balanced.

Also on the issue of balance, the focus appears to be on the power / strength side of the PC's that people try to balance, the OP shows that that is the focus. In my opinion, this type of balance is largely irrelevant. The balance that needs to be struck is in terms of 'stage time' and the ability to shine 'in game'. Whether one PC shines in combat and the other in diplomatic issues is balance as well imho. Therefore, balance purely on the basis of combat effectiveness is of little relevance as far as I am concerned.

Adding to these opinions the result of balancing making characters generally more bland and less interesting, the resulting drive for combat based balance has solely detrimental side effects while it has little impact improving the 'real' balance that is needed (imho) in terms of stage time / attention. It achieves little but destroys much, thus it is a 'bad thing' in my opinion...
 

AllisterH

First Post
Actually, I personally don't HAVE a problem with "unbalanced" games.

What I do have a problem with is games that are unbalanced implicitly but tell you explicitly that there are balanced.

E.g. Ars Magica is my favourite RPG outside of D&D and there is a world of difference between Companion and Mages to say nothing of Grogs. But the thing is, the game explicitly tells you "the star of the game is the Mage..companions are simply sidekicks and while they might have an interesting sidestory, the star is the Mage character just like in say Sherlock Holmes.

Similarly, the BuffytVS RPG also is "unbalanced" but again, it tells you this upfront...

What gets my teeth on edge is something like the Palladium RPG where the Glitter Boys are considered "equal" to a ratcatcher in how the book talks about the classes.
 


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